Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI

Thanks Buddy, you are a buddy indeed. You understood me exactly right.
just after i sent off that post, i thought of a better title for it - 
something about preventing the next holocaust - which is the word Alan 
wanted to hear
and which it does seem they are preparing for us / us for now - not 
excesses, but a holocaust

what i meant, as well as i can remember, i wrote that one fast, one has 
only so much time for everything - was to qualify that although germany had 
been given a raw deal, that was no justification for what hitler did -  the 
germans overreacted excessively. there could have been a touch of sarcasm, 
too: note - and this may make some readers more rather than less angry - 
that in the theoretical mold of the hypothesis i am working on, the cutting 
edge is that hitler was a puppet of WASP capital, promoted for destructive 
ends. (careful - this absolves no one of guilt for their own acts, it only 
widens the circle of culpable perpetrators.) so one might be more clinical 
about it, and the display of emotion ritually indulged in by the victors of 
that struggle loses its relevance here, since what i am on about is THEIR 
guilt - righteous rage needs to be directed at them too - a controversial 
point. hitlers holocaust, on the other hand, is taken as read, an axiom, 
and not a matter of debate, although this must not be forgotten, either, 
particularly with the denialist virus circulating.

of course, the mass murders were very much excesses - outliers or a spike 
on the chart of history. it is a commonplace - one even uttered by gw bush 
- that the real horror of the nazi genocide was that it occurred in a 
civilized, cultured country, and with a high degree of organization. it is 
even said this was the worst mass murder of all time, on those 
qualititative grounds. 6 million, much as the number boggles the mind, is 
not the world record for genocide as a quantum - tragically, for all those 
who became the statistics, and their survivors.

the new fascist threat we see emerging brings out new aspects of that 
qualitative horror. the other week, reading some online sources about the 
skull & bones - hitler links, i was in a kind of state of shock for 24 
hours, after bumping into something truly horrible. it seems the nazis were 
working on a project called mass trauma. what made me sick was this thought:

we have been told that the nazis claimed they were doing scientific work in 
the death camps, but this is always pooh-poohed as pseudo science. odd, 
since we know they had superb scientists. what if the camps were also 
laboratories of an evil branch of psychology? destructively testing the 
limits of endurance and solidarity of a large group of victims, measuring 
the point of breakdown of each stage of social cohesion, human dignity and 
personality? wouldn't the findings be useful in subjugating their 
conquests? and what if that knowledge was recuperated by the americans and 
russians, and is now being used to calibrate mass terror on us? or maybe i 
should be in the movie business instead of book publishing? well, since 
election day 2000, we are living in the atmosphere of a horror movie. from 
who else - the bush family, with all those cia-skull-nazi links in the attic.

if this holds true, the final horror of the nazi holocaust, and its most 
far-reaching dimension, beyond the shedding of rivers of innocent blood, 
would be its introduction of new and evil techniques into the bloodstream 
of human history, against which we are haplessly struggling today. after 
all, it was soon after the nazi defeat, in 1948, that Orwell wrote 1984...

i was just sent a fantastic article by david mcgowan, about 911 as 
orwellian psychological warfare on us. MUST READ!
America Through the Looking Glass http://www.swans.com/library/art8/dmg001.html

...have a nice 24 hours.

At 23:07 22.10.02 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't know anything about John Leonard. I did not attack him personally. I
>only said that the use of the term "hitler's excesses"  was a terrible
>choice of words. It was a terrible choice of words, and I stand by my
>comments.
>
>Nothing else in my comments made any other criticism of John Leonard.
>Presumably he, and Buddy Grizzard, and all others who want to help prevent
>future genocides should respect a criticism in the spirit of making the
>movement against genocide stronger, and more able to resist the kinds of
>distracting counter-attacks from the rightwing that might occur when we do
>use words inappropriately. If we can't criticize each other in hopes of
>making our work better, then, what is it we are trying to accomplish?
>
>Alan Spector
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Buddy Grizzard" <the_allfather@hotmail.com>
>To: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 9:38 PM
>Subject: Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI
>
>
> >
> > I know of few people who are doing more right now to prevent FUTURE
> > genocides than John Leonard. If you think he should have used the word
> > "atrocities" instead of "excesses," that's certainly a defensible opinion.
> > But to suggest that John is engaging in apologetics by using a milder word
> > than you would have preferred is simple absurdity.
> >
> > Buddy Grizzard
> > Press Secretary, Garrett for Governor, Georgia Green Party
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: "Alan Spector" <spectors@netnitco.net>
> > To: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI
> > Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:52:29 -0500
> >
> > I am generally, but not absolutely opposed to censorship. Nobody is
> > absolutely opposed to censorship, no matter what they say. The question is
> > where one draws the line.
> >
> > I draw the line at someone referring to the Nazi war against the Jews,
> > so-called "gypsies", the Russian people, Slavic people in general, as well
> > as the other victims---totalling tens of millions of civilians killed by
>the
> > Nazis------referring to that as "Hitler's excesses". (see Leonard's
>original
> > post below). It should make other members of the WSN list uneasy that this
> > type of posting appears on a list with which we are all associated.
> >
> > I write this as someone who is absolutely opposed to the US government and
> > the Israeli government's murderous wars against Arab people and who has
> > publicly stated so to thousands of people, (and with, of course, the
> > understanding that terrorist attacks against civilians, including Jewish
> > civilians in Israel is also inexcusable).
> >
> > Alan Spector
> >
> > ===================================================
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Leonard" <leonardjp@earthlink.net>
> > To: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 12:42 PM
> > Subject: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI
> >
> >
> >  > On the general subject of us-uk vs. europe or an anglo-american axis
> >  > dominating the continentals (and rest of world), and following on the
> >  > verification done on this list re the Julius Caesar quote, could anyone
> >  > authenticate the excerpt "David Lloyd George, Memoirs" below,
> >  > which is now circulating on the net?
> >  >
> >  > its burden is to show that in the closely matched struggle of WWI,
> >  > key jewish support was bartered for palestine to the first bidder
> >  >
> >  > also is it true that David Lloyd George was hired as legal counsel for
> > the
> >  > World Zionist Organization starting in 1906?
> >  >
> >  > sorry to bother you but i'm a long way from the nearest research
>library!
> >  > and we want to refer to the source below in a pending publication
> >  >
> >  > [i intend to use this source to show, among other things, that Germany
> >  > really was stabbed in the back. not to justify hitler's excesses of
> > course;
> >  > i have other sources that show he was sponsored indirectly by the same
> >  > american financial "elite" that sponsored the bolsheviks.
> >  > Some sources are footnoted at http://www.petitiononline.com/stoputsh/
> >  >
> >  > A related unverified allegation is that Clemenceau, who pushed for the
> >  > mad peace treaty of Versailles, was a British agent. Any feedback on
> >  > that would be welcome too.
> >  >
> >  > what i am going to try to show is that an anglo-american cabal more or
> > less
> >  > planned the calamities known as the first half of the 2oth century,
>both
> > for
> >  > private profit and as a continuation of the strategy of divide and
> > conquer,
> >  > called by them the balance of power.
> >  >
> >  > I feel this is very topical now that only the us-uk axis supports an
> >  > unprovoked attack to grab the iraqi oil fields, and it should be
> > addressed
> >  > to avoid more of the same calamities recurring in the 21st century]
> >  >
> >  > ---------------
> >  >
> >  > David Lloyd George, Memoirs of the Peace Conference, Volume II, New
> >  > Haven, Yale University Press 1939; (ch. XXIII).
> >  > {p. 722} The next factor which produced a momentous change was the
> >  > decision to come to terms with Jewry, which was clamouring for an
> >  > opportunity to make Canaan once more the homeland of their race. There
> >  > are more Irishmen living outside Ireland than dwell in the old country.
> >  > Still, Ireland is the homeland of the Irish people. No one imagined
>that
> >  > the 14,000,000 of Jews scattered over the globe could find room and a
> >  > living in Palestine. Nevertheless this race of wanderers sought a
> >  > national hearth and a refuge for the hunted children of Israel in the
> >  > country which the splendour of their spiritual genius has made forever
> >  > glorious.
> >  > It seems strange to say that the Germans were the first to realise the
> >  > war value of the Jews of the dispersal. In Poland it was they who
>helped
> >  > the German Army to conquer the Czarist oppressor who had so cruelly
> >  > persecuted their race. They had their influence in other lands -
>notably
> >  > in America, where some of their most powerful leaders exerted a
> >  > retarding influence on President Wilson's impulses in the direction of
> >  > the Allies. {ed. - before the Balfour Declaration} The German General
> >  > Staff in 1916 urged the Turks to concede the demands of the Zionists in
> >  > respect of Palestine. Fortunately the Turk was too stupid to understand
> >  > or too sluggish to move. The fact that Britain at last opened her eyes
> >  > to the opportunity afforded to the Allies to rally this powerful people
> >  > to their side was attributable to the initiative, the assiduity and the
> >  > fervour of one of the greatest Hebrews of all time: Dr. Chaim Weizmann.
> >  > He found his opportunity in this War of Nations to advance the cause to
> >  > which he had consecrated his life. ...
> >  > {p. 723} Propaganda on both sides probably played a greater part in the
> >  > last war than in any other. As an illustration I might take the public
> >  > declarations we made of the Allied intention to liberate and confer
> >  > self-government on nationalities inside the enemy Empires, - Turkey,
> >  > Germany, and Austria. These announcements were intended to have a
> >  > propagandist effect, not only at home, but also in neutral countries
>and
> >  > perhaps most of all in enemy countries. ...
> >  > {p. 724} The Balfour Declaration represented the convinced policy of
>all
> >  > parties in our country and also in America, but the launching of it in
> >  > 1917 was due, as I have said, to propagandist reasons. I should like
> >  > once more to remind the British public, who may be hesitating about the
> >  > burdens of our Zionist Declaration to-day, of the actual war position
>at
> >  > the time of that Declaration. We are now looking at the War through the
> >  > dazzling glow of a triumphant end, but in 1917 the issue of the War was
> >  > still very much in doubt. We were convinced - but not all of us - that
> >  > we would pull through victoriously, but the Germans were equally
> >  > persuaded that victory would rest on their banners, and they had much
> >  > reason for coming to that conclusion. They had smashed the Roumanians.
> >  > The Russian Army was completely demoralised by its numerous defeats.
>The
> >  > French Army was exhausted and temporarily unequal to striking a great
> >  > blow. The Italians had sustained a shattering defeat at Caporetto. The
> >  > unlimited submarine campaign had sunk millions of tons of our shipping.
> >  > There were no American divisions at the front, and when I say at the
> >  > front, I mean available in the trenches. For the Allies there were two
> >  > paramount problems at that time. The first was that the Central Powers
> >  > should be broken by the blockade before our supplies of food and
> >  > essential raw material were cut off by sinkings of our own ships. The
> >  > other was that the war preparations in the United States should be
> >  > speeded up to such an extent as to enable the Allies to be adequately
> >  > reinforced in the critical campaign of 1918 by American troops. In the
> >  > solution of these two problems, public opinion in Russia and America
> >  > played a great part, and we had every reason at that time to believe
> >  > that in both countries the friendliness or hostility of the Jewish race
> >  > might make a considerable difference. ...
> >  > {p. 725} The support of the Zionists for the cause of the Entente would
> >  > mean a great deal as a war measure. Quite naturally Jewish sympathies
> >  > were to a great extent anti-Russian, and therefore in favour of the
> >  > Central Powers. No ally of Russia, in fact, could escape sharing that
> >  > immediate and inevitable penalty for the long and savage Russian
> >  > persecution of the Jewish race. In addition to this, the German General
> >  > Staff, with their wide outlook on possibilities, urged, early in 1916,
> >  > the advantages of promising Jewish restoration to Palestine under an
> >  > arrangement
> >  > {p. 726} to be made between Zionists and Turkey, backed by a German
> >  > guarantee. The practical difficulties were considerable; the subject
>was
> >  > perhaps dangerous to German relations with Turkey; and the German
> >  > Government acted cautiously. But the scheme was by no means rejected or
> >  > even shelved, and at any moment the Allies might have been forestalled
> >  > in offering this supreme bid. In fact in September, 1917, the German
> >  > Government were making very serious efforts to capture the Zionist
> >  > Movement.
> >  > Another most cogent reason for the adoption by the Allies of the policy
> >  > of the declaration lay in the state of Russia herself. Russian Jews had
> >  > been secretly active on behalf of the Central Powers from the first;
> >  > they had become the chief agents of German pacifist propaganda in
> >  > Russia; by 1917 they had done much in preparing for that general
> >  > disintegration of Russian society, later recognised as the Revolution.
> >  > It was believed that if Great Britain declared for the fulfilment of
> >  > Zionist aspirations in Palestine under her own pledge, one effect would
> >  > be to bring Russian Jewry to the cause of the Entente.
> >  > It was believed, also, that such a declaration would have a potent
> >  > influence upon world Jewry outside Russia, and secure for the Entente
> >  > the aid of Jewish financial interests. In America, their aid in this
> >  > respect would have a special value when the Allies had almost exhausted
> >  > the gold and marketable securities available for American purchases.
> >  > Such were the chief considerations which, in 1917, impelled the British
> >  > Government towards making a contract with Jewry.
> >  > Men like Mr. Balfour, Lord Milner, Lord Robert Cecil, and myself were
>in
> >  > whole-hearted sympathy with the Zionist ideal. The same thing applied
>to
> >  > all the leaders of public opinion in our country and in the Dominions,
> >  > Conservative, Liberal, and Labour. There were only one or two who were
> >  > not so favourably inclined to the policy.
> >  > ==
> >  > posted to frameup@yahoogroups.com by Dick Eastman
> >  >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN.
> > http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
> >