Re: Decentralization & Hierarchy

Hi,

This is my first post to the list though I've been a lurker for several 
months.

There is something I need clarification on re Marguerite's argument about 
the necessity to privilege specific elements necessary to support human life 
(the ecological system argument' for short).

I don't have a problem with that, but I don't see how it could translate on 
1 to 1 relation with social hierarchies are necessary?
Same thing with the 'hierarchies are natural' argument.

The point of culture is to mediate nature to the best human advantage 
(ideally). Whether or not natural hierarchies or ecological privilege 
translate into social hierarchies is a matter of human ingenuity in 
organizing cultural/social systems. I thought the point of the discussion 
was to maximise this ingenuity to minimize as much as possible natural 
givens if they're disadvantageous and to maximize such givens if they're 
advantageous. Of course the question of what's advantageous is a matter of 
moral/political choice. Did we agree or not that equality and non-domination 
are 'advantageous'?

Oh well, my 2 cents worth

Jacques

PS by the way, i also think that the operations of the gender system are 
crucial to the analysis of the world-system. I was impressed by Moghadam's 
paper. Thanks to whoever sent it (I forgot whom sorry)

>From: Marguerite M Hampton <ecopilgrim@juno.com>
>To: Bagelhole1@aol.com, FixGov@egroups.com
>CC: richard@cyberjournal.org, cj@cyberjournal.org,        
>renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org, wsn@csf.colorado.edu,        
>social-movements@listserv.heanet.ie
>Subject: Re: Decentralization & Hierarchy
>Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:23:25 -0800
>
>
>On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:27:39 EST Bagelhole1@aol.com writes:
>
>to Richard Moore:
>
> > With all due respect, this question isn't worthy of debate, in my
>opinion. In a decentralized, democratic, mutually cooperative, global
>society,  non-sovereign except for the sovereignty of the individual,
>there would be no  hierarchies in general and especially in any
>overarching ways, but  where it makes sense to have hierarchies, in
>particular situations,
>  hierarchies would  exist, if the people involved so choosed.>
>
>While I am largely in agreement with Richard Moore in his writings, I do
>feel the element that is missing is 'the voice of the earth.'  The
>success of 'hunter-gatherer' societies of the past was based largely in
>their reliance on the earth as their 'source' of life-giving essentials.
>They therefore largely lived in a 'symbiotic' relationship with the earth
>-- taking care of the earth as it took care of them -- they understood
>the earth, spoke its language, and entrusted their well-being in its care
>and in turn, worshiped it along with the sun which they understood also
>to be a 'life-giving' force.
>
>The thing that I notice as I review the writings on the FixGov, WSN, and
>other lists is that all fail to take into consideration the earth and the
>sun  as the 'giver or source of life-giving essentials' without which
>homo sapiens cannot exist.  The basis for humanity, for civilization is
>the land -- the earth -- the topsoil combined with the sun.  The earth
>and sun can go on without man, but we cannot go on without the earth and
>the sun.  I would therefore like to submit that there is a hierarchy that
>exists and is a nondebatable, noncontestable issue -- that is, that the
>earth and the sun is the basis upon which all civilization is built and
>is the first layer of the hierarchy which emanates from bottom up.  The
>second layer of the hierarchy is then, civilization.  I feel that until
>the human population of today begins to understand and acknowledge this
>noncontestable hierarchy and 'speak' in this language that everything
>else is based in a false premise.
>
>Instead of 'worshiping' the earth and the sun as primative societies did,
>modern day society has been directed and controlled by its 'churches' and
>other places of worship founders, to direct our worship to 'some unknown
>god who lives someplace outside of us' and who takes care of our 'soul'
>but largely ignores our 'life source'  -- the earth and the sun.
>
>marguerite
>
> > In a message dated 1/23/01 5:08:03 AM, richard@cyberjournal.org
> > writes:
> >
> > << The question we are investigating is of critical importance
> > to our future.  I invite people to help shed light on the
> > problem. >>
>
>Marguerite Hampton
>Executive Director - Turtle Island Institute
>EcoPilgrim@juno.com
>http://tii-kokopellispirit.org

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