Re: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?

e now
see ya later
g/
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, Elson Boles wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:10:07 -0400
> From: Elson Boles <boles@svsu.edu>
> To: franka@fiu.edu
> Cc: PKARDULIAS@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU, wsn@csf.colorado.edu, gills@hawaii.edu,
>      Alf.Hornborg@humecol.lu.se
> Subject: Re: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?
> 
> Thanks Gunder for your time.  Yes, we're done.  Comments from others CCd 
>would be appreicated.
> Elson
> 
> Elson E. Boles
> Assistant Professor
> Sociology
> Saginaw Valley State University
> 
> 
> >>> Andre Gunder Frank <franka@fiu.edu> 08/13/03 12:36PM >>>
> I stand by Barry on this one. But IW and we are not onto the same. he
> has his various w-s's and wordl empires. We do not. We have not studied
> the Americas ad Barry says, but would start with the ame approach to see 
> how far it gts us, and change it wher when necesary. But it got me quite 
> a ways in using the data the Americanists provided in the Kardulias
> edited book and EXTENDING their analysis thogh ws means. 
> also see
> Alf Hornborg in the Denemark edited book.
> 
> can we stop thisnmow? i got oteh thjngs to do yoo
> gunderOn Wed, 13 Aug
> 2003, Elson Boles wrote:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:53:44 -0400
> > From: Elson Boles <boles@svsu.edu>
> > To: franka@fiu.edu 
> > Cc: wsn@csf.colorado.edu 
> > Subject: Re: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?
> > 
> > Fair enough: your non-answer stems from a misunderstanding.  By the "world 
>system of ReOrient" I referred to the system (the Eurasian system that is 5000 
>years old), not to the dates that you limit your analysis of it to in 
>ReOrient.  
> > 
> > So, the as-of-yet UNANSWERED question is, again, do you see other "world 
>systems" existing coterminous with the Eurasian world system prior to its 
>expansion across the entire planet after 1500?  Have you any guess as to where 
>and how many?
> > 
> > You and Gills say you do, as I quoted.  However, when I brought this to 
>Gills' attention, he was ambiguous in response, stating that "We would 
>probably want to use the very same approach [in studying the Americas] we used 
>to examine world system history in Afro-Eurasia."  
> > 
> > And, incidentally, I guess that "approach" is really no different that 
>Wallerstein's, since you both essentially use divisions of labor as criteria, 
>or whatever empirical evidence is available to suggest systemacity.  The 
>theory and outcome or interpretation of the data is different, not the 
>approach (or is the same until Wallerstein began his shift to focus on meaning 
>systems as the underlying binding glue of systems in the 1990s or so).
> > 
> > Elson
> > 
> > Elson E. Boles
> > Assistant Professor
> > Sociology
> > Saginaw Valley State University
> > 
> > 
> > >>> Andre Gunder Frank <franka@fiu.edu> 08/12/03 06:10PM >>>
> > see CAPS BELOW On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Elson Boles wrote:
> > 
> > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:58:22 -0400
> > > From: Elson Boles <boles@svsu.edu>
> > > To: franka@fiu.edu 
> > > Cc: wsn@csf.colorado.edu 
> > > Subject: Re: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?
> > > 
> > > Dear Gunder,
> > > 
> > > Thanks.  But please clarify one seeming contradiction in your response.
> > > 
> > > On the one hand, you say "no" to the question, "Do you see other "world 
>systems" existing coterminous with the
> > > Eurasian world system of ReOrient?" YOU WROTE REORIENT, THAT IS
> > 1400-1800, THERE WAS NONE AFTER 1492/1500
> >  This contradicts what you and
> > Gills wrote previously:  
> > > 
> > > So, as of now, have you changed your position and contend that there were 
>no other world systems (no hyphen) that existed elsewhere on the planet during 
>the era of your Euraisan World System PRIOR to its expansion across the entire 
>planet after 1750?
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Elson
> > > 
> > > Elson E. Boles
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Sociology
> > > Saginaw Valley State University
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >>> Andre Gunder Frank <franka@fiu.edu> 08/12/03 11:31AM >>>
> > > I have not stidied the pre'Columbian'Americas, except for readint this
> > > and that, and writing in response to some of that, in my commentaRY
> > > CHAPTER IN THE kARDULIAS EDITED wORLD sYSTEM BOOK sorrry for caps, where 
> > > you can look up what i had=have- to say.
> > > 
> > > The Afro-Eurasian sysem is ''global'' or '' world'' in the sens that it
> > > expanded to incoorporate the ''new world'' -
> > > IW also speaks so, but of course his ''world'' is European Atlantic and
> > > only starts to incoporate the rest after 1750.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Answers to 1-4
> > > 1 no ,2 yes, 3 as you wish for the opccasion,context of yours, 4.yes and
> > > no = also other criteria, see bronze age article or Denemark edited book
> > > cheers
> > > agf
> > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Elson Boles
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:54:24 -0400
> > > > From: Elson Boles <boles@svsu.edu>
> > > > To: franka@fiu.edu 
> > > > Cc: wsn@csf.colorado.edu 
> > > > Subject: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?
> > > > 
> > > > Dear Gunder,
> > > > 
> > > > I've been working on an article for Review since about the time we both 
>presented at an ISA panel in Chicago, Feb 2001 (I presented on the Japan-US 
>silknetwork and published my paper in JWSR.)   A heavy teaching load keeps me 
>from finishing this article (and much else).
> > > > 
> > > > When assessing your and Gills arguments, it is sometimes necessary to 
>distinguish the literal word with the spirit of intention (or the content).  
>An recent example is found in WSN in which you audaciously claim:
> > > >  
> > > > In reality, there are and have been NO civilizations, societies, 
>cultures, ethnicities   and even states in and of themselves. There are NO 
>such essentialist intrinsically self-contained entities. To claim, identify, 
>and study any such makes NO sense whatsoever and only beclouds reality. There 
>are only connections and relations within and among such alleged civilizations.
> > > > 
> > > > However, the spirit of the words is later qualified: "I dont deny
> > > > existence of culgture, of cousre not, but evidence suggests that it is
> > > > not a much causative element of what happens. Structure is mucg mnore
> > > > so."
> > > > 
> > > > This particular subject of structure and agency isn't part of my essay. 
> However, what is concerns the temporal and spatial boundaries of your and 
>Gills 5000 year old system.  
> > > > 
> > > > Let me switch to the third-person.
> > > > 
> > > > Frank very frequent uses  the term "global" in characterizing the 
>difference of your and IW's views, but he doesn't literally mean the globe 
>which implies the entire planet.  The spirit of the term, and sometimes 
>alternative wording like "Eurasian world system," indicates that Gills and 
>Frank's world system is smaller than the entire planet.  Another example is 
>that in one essay Gills and Frank write:  
> > > > 
> > > > However, the 'New World' in the 'Americas' was of course home to some 
>world-systems of its own before its incorporation into our (pre-existing) 
>world system after 1492 (Frank and Gills 1996: 3).
> > > > 
> > > > Clearly, their use the term "world-system" (with hyphen), must be an 
>editorial error.  And Barry has confirmed this in correspondence with me.  But 
>this issue has led to confusion for many, including Wallerstein, who 
>incorrectly contended that, "They use the singular because, for them, there is 
>and has been only one world system through all of historical time and space" 
>and "They cannot conceive of multiple 'world-systems' coexisting on the 
>planet" (1996 [1991]: 294, 295).   There is evidence in Gills and Frank's 
>writings to the contrary, including the statement about the "belated 
>incorporated Americas after 1492 and of Oceania after 1760."   
> > > > 
> > > > The question then is what was in the Americas prior to that?  So, I
> > > > put these more general questions to AGF:
> > > > 
> > > > 1.  Do you see other "world systems" existing coterminous with the
> > > > Eurasian world system of ReOrient?
> > > > 
> > > > 2.  At some point in time in human history, do you not acknowledge the
> > > > existence of systems (and more of them) smaller than your large world
> > > > systems?
> > > > 
> > > > 3.  If so, what do you call them if not bands, tribes, chiefdoms, or
> > > > networks, or "mini-systems"?  If not, then what?
> > > > 
> > > > 4.  Is it not the case that you use the same criteria as Wallerstein
> > > > (a division of labor) to measure the boundaries of your systems in
> > > > time and space?
> > > > 
> > > > Elson E. Boles
> > > > Assistant Professor
> > > > Sociology
> > > > Saginaw Valley State University
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >     
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > 
> > >                ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK
> > > 
> > > Senior Fellow                                      Residence
> > > World History Center                    One Longfellow Place
> > > Northeastern University                            Apt. 3411
> > > 270 Holmes Hall                         Boston, MA 02114 USA
> > > Boston, MA 02115 USA                    Tel:    617-948 2315
> > > Tel: 617 - 373 4060                     Fax:    617-948 2316
> > > Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/     e-mail:franka@fiu.edu 
> > > Web-page UPDATES are at   http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank 
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> >                ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK
> > 
> > Senior Fellow                                      Residence
> > World History Center                    One Longfellow Place
> > Northeastern University                            Apt. 3411
> > 270 Holmes Hall                         Boston, MA 02114 USA
> > Boston, MA 02115 USA                    Tel:    617-948 2315
> > Tel: 617 - 373 4060                     Fax:    617-948 2316
> > Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/     e-mail:franka@fiu.edu 
> > Web-page UPDATES are at   http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
>                ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK
> 
> Senior Fellow                                      Residence
> World History Center                    One Longfellow Place
> Northeastern University                            Apt. 3411
> 270 Holmes Hall                         Boston, MA 02114 USA
> Boston, MA 02115 USA                    Tel:    617-948 2315
> Tel: 617 - 373 4060                     Fax:    617-948 2316
> Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/     e-mail:franka@fiu.edu 
> Web-page UPDATES are at   http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 




    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

               ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK

Senior Fellow                                      Residence
World History Center                    One Longfellow Place
Northeastern University                            Apt. 3411
270 Holmes Hall                         Boston, MA 02114 USA
Boston, MA 02115 USA                    Tel:    617-948 2315
Tel: 617 - 373 4060                     Fax:    617-948 2316
Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/     e-mail:franka@fiu.edu
Web-page UPDATES are at   http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~