Re: new immanence - Chirac cheats!

Dear Yurek, just a few comments:

"What you write about diplomatic wheeling and dealing may be true. This is
what they do most of the time"

Precisely.  Nothing new in this.

"Mass public divergence with official decision making is new (see the 
statistics)"

I'm not sure this divergence matters.  For instance, statistics showed that 
the French were massively against nuclear tests in Mururoa - so what? They got 
done anyway.  Sometimes divergence can get big enough, and contribute to stop 
a war (see Vietnam).  Precisely, the great lesson of politics since then, is 
that the US have been into the business of trying to control they own people, 
and not planet earth, as some accounts of events put it.  Anyway, I'm not even 
sure anti-war protests contributed that much to stop the war in Viet-Nam.  
They were loosing, right?  It might have happened anyway.  Besides, the 
present 'anti-war' movement does not even compare to that case of incredible 
mass mobilisation.

"Rough split in NATO is new"

No, it is not. The French got half out of it, got half back into it, messed it 
all up: end result: French planes bombing Belgrade under Nato commands.

"Negri's concept of "multitude" might be handy"

I have to confess that I read Empire three times and I'm not quite sure what 
to make out of it.  It seems a weird attempt at mixing up some Gramsci with 
some Foucault using (rather arbitrarily) the Spinozean concept of immanence. 
Anyway, and immanent approach to multitude...what would that look like?  Like 
a Deleuzian 'virtual multiplicity'? A rhizomic, emergent, self organizing 
life?  The last thing we can say about recent marches is that they are 
spontaneous.  World public opinion has been saturated with stories about the 
Irak crisis for months now, for heaven's sake.

"Intense stand-off in the Security Council is new"

Is it?  As far as I know, nobody has threatened the veto yet - China and 
Russia would probably abstain.  Have you ever wondered why the US have decided 
to go through the UN this time?  Why not ignoring it, as with Kosovo and 
Afghanistan (and missile attacks on Sudan's factories of 'chemical 
weapons'...).  Are they not just using it precisely to drum up world public 
opinion?  Do you doubt that, now that the historical precednts have been 
created, the US would hesitate into going straight into Irak without UN 
consultations, if that was really what they wanted to do?

"But note, international law and the legitimacy of international institutions 
are being challenged"

Precisely. Just like in the good old days at the peak of (modern) European 
Imperialism, when these norms did not even exist.  The whole international law 
business has always been a bluff.  Even when it was meant to be accepted by 
all, the US used it as toilet paper while it took action in Guatemala, 
Honduras, Panama, Granada...in the name of what?  In the name of Higher 
Absolute values: the fight against Communism, Freedom, Democracy. etc. Well, 
it marks a difference from previous absolute transcendentals: the Nation, the 
King, God, the Race...but not much really. The problem with the Law is that, 
while formulated upon absolute principles, it has to be applied in the realm 
of immanence: thus the idea that the everyone is equal before the Law. 
Positive international law has never existed. Modernity IS, as Michel Foucault 
describes it, the absolute triumph of a trascendental mode of thinking, 
embedded, according to him, in an emerging vision of totalising History (thus, 
in The Order of Things, Modernity is described as the Age of History...look 
around, everybody here, whether Bush or others, claim to be fighting an 
'historic' battle, and justify their actions through plenty of trascendental 
notions...pure Modernity)

"For the first time legitimacy is being given to a "preventive" war -
does it not remind you of a futuristic Hollywood movie with Tom Cruz where
the police arrested the criminals before they committed crimes (note also
the morale from that movie" "The prospect of war is entertained on the grounds 
of a "just war"

For the first time since when???  Since the raise of Modernity, there have 
been plenty of preventive wars.  The notion of preventive war is absolutely 
not a 'post-modern' concept.  Besides, if I remember the movie 
correctely...the plan gets abandoned in the end, does it not?  The message of 
the movie is precisely that it is impossible to stop a crime before it 
happens.  All sides in WW1 and 2, in fact, in all modern and pre modern wars 
were claiming to be fighting a just war.  Note that the movie thus stresses 
how important it is to catch criminals fairly (that is, after they have 
commited the crime).  The Yanks are not talking any longer about a preventive 
war - Saddam is said to be in 'Material Breach'...

"Has not a permanent state of emergency become a substitute for the rule of 
international law?"

Hmmmm...no.  Granada (among others) was invaded regardless of international 
law because of the 'permanent state of emergency' created by 'Communism'.  
Immagine!!! Reagan even managed to argue that the tiny island constituted a 
security threat for the US (of course, we all know that this was not the case 
-)!!!  It seems to me that we a have a lot of difficulties in accepting that 
the project of International Positive Law was a total failure (and the UN just 
as marginal as the Society of Nations) and we are trying to kid oursleves with 
the idea that such a thing really did exist.  But no it did not - the 
application of international positive law, now, THAT would have been TRULY 
postmodern...condition.

"I wrote that I rather agree with Anthony Giddens’s view that post
modernity is a “radicalisation of modernity” and thus does not imply a
rupture and discontinuity."

In this case, the term 'postmodernity' is totally inadequte, as 'post' can 
only mean discontinuity (after - even if an after is rooted in the present, it 
can only be different, discontunous, from it).  I suggest Mr Giddens uses the 
term 'hypermodernity', if that is what he means.  For once, he would gain my 
admiration (not that it counts that much)
 
Finally, I would suggest not to pay too much attention to this whole 
'multitude' on the assumption that these participants in anti-war marches know 
what they are doing.  The pacifist stance (war is wrong. Period. In all Cases) 
is just as 'Modern' (absolute trascendentalism) as the hawkish stand.  It is 
the nature of things that when something gets talked about for ages by all 
means, people feel the need to take a position.  That's about it. (More 
civilians died in Afghanistan than in NY-about double, in fact.  Where were 
the manifestations? The public did not react -why?)


>Dear Damian,

>What you write about diplomatic wheeling and dealing may be true. This is
>what they do most of the time. My posting was to try to draw attention to a
>new twist in global affairs. Mass public divergence with official decision
>making is new (see the statistics), hence I thought Negri's concept of
>multitude" might be handy. Rough split in NATO is new. Intense stand-off in
>the Security Council is new. We have to account for all this.
>You say it is no different from good old modernity. But note, international
>law and the legitimacy of international institutions are being challenged.
>The prospect of war is entertained on the grounds of a "just war" (not self
>defence ) and bears the signs of a police action rather than a traditional
>war. For the first time legitimacy is being given to a "preventive" war -
>does it not remind you of a futuristic Hollywood movie with Tom Cruz where
>the police arrested the criminals before they committed crimes (note also
>the morale from that movie). Has not a permanent state of emergency become a
>substitute for the rule of international law?
>On a different occasion I wrote on this list about my attitude to post
>modernity. I wrote that I rather agree with Anthony Giddens’s view that post
>modernity is a “radicalisation of modernity” and thus does not imply a
>rupture and discontinuity. However, I also said that analytically it is
>quite helpful.
>Best wishes,
>Yurek
>
>
>-------Original Message-------
>
>From: n0705590
>Date: 18 luty 2003 09:56:04
>To: Yurek Gierus; Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk; wsn@csf.colorado.edu
>Subject: RE: new immanence - Chirac cheats!
>
>Dear Yurek,
>
>That is fair enough. But:
>
>1) Have you ever thought that this could also be a concerted strategy (i.e,
>the French and the Germans complain for a little while, so that the myth of
>dissent, debate and space for different opinions can really be preserved.
>Then, when we all happily bomb Irak, Rumsfield can declare - You see? The
>Frenchies were against it now they in favour of it, we allowed for
>constructutive debate and dialogue but finally even they saw the light. What
>about the French themselves, who finally find something to be proud of in
>their President? Same thing goes - Ah well, Chirac was making a stand
>AGAINST
>the war, but if he is now doing it...it must really have been necessary).
>This is no speculation, it's common practice. During Ramboulliet the French
>were allowed to dissent for a while (AND the Yanks PRECISELY USED THE FRENCH
>TO SUPPORT THE ARGUMENT 'OH WEEL, WE TRIED EVERYTHING WE COULD TO GIVE PEACE
>A
>LAST CHANCE...) but in the end, French planes were right there in the middle
>of it. Murky buisiness - and you will know by now that in yesterday's talks
>with Blair the Germans finally a 'accepted' the idea that violence might be
>necesary in the last instance...
>
>2) Frankly, I don't see this new european quality you are talking about. As
>an european, great believer in the Ventotene Manifesto, I would definitely
>welcome it. A really new European quality would imply a decent CFSP, Solana
>doing his job properly, and something that resembles a task force (the
>proposed figure of 60.000 men is totally derisory. We could not even
>intervene in half of Kosovo with that). Finally, I fail to grasp the
>connection with this 'post-modern' condition. On the contrary, i would argue
>that we are witnessing Modernity in all its strenght.
>
>>
>>Dear Damian,
>>
>>I understand what you are talking about. The essence of my intervention is
>>that we are witnessing something new. The necessity to take a stand vis a
>>vis US in Iraq crisis on the one hand and the pressures to act decisively
>in
>>the face of ongoing European expansion on the other hand combine to bring
>>forth a new European quality, better suited to what some call a post modern
>>condition. Lets wait and see.
>>
>>Yurek
>>
>>-------Original Message-------
>>
>>From: n0705590
>>Date: 17 luty 2003 09:33:23
>>To: Yurek Gierus; wsn@csf.colorado.edu
>>Subject: RE: new immanence - Chirac cheats!
>>
>>Dear Yurek,
>>
>>I really wish I coould agree with your diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to
>>me
>>that the European 'peace movement' is nothing more than fluke. Where was
>>Chirac during the Kosovo crisis? Ordering his planes to bomb civilian
>>tragets
>>in Yugoslavia. Chirac is no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage over this:
>>as
>>war on Irak will be declared, the French are going to be right in it,
>>bombing
>>as they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. The Germans and the French
>>are just trying to ride a wave of popular sentiment which is totally
>>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists during the Kosovo war (the
>>most blatant violation of international law ever since the concept was
>>embedded in the UN. It is amazing how stupid people are some times - if we
>>talk about a war for months and take it to the UN they complain, if we just
>>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be just fine
>>
>>Damian Popolo
>>PhD candidate
>>Newcastle University
>>Department of Politics
>>Room 301
>>
>>
>>
>>-------Original Message-------
>>
>>From: n0705590
>>Date: 17 luty 2003 09:33:23
>>To: Yurek Gierus; wsn@csf.colorado.edu
>>Subject: RE: new immanence - Chirac cheats!
>>
>>Dear Yurek,
>>
>>I really wish I coould agree with your diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to
>>me
>>that the European 'peace movement' is nothing more than fluke. Where was
>>Chirac during the Kosovo crisis? Ordering his planes to bomb civilian
>>tragets
>>in Yugoslavia. Chirac is no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage over this:
>>as
>>war on Irak will be declared, the French are going to be right in it,
>>bombing
>>as they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. The Germans and the French
>>are just trying to ride a wave of popular sentiment which is totally
>>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists during the Kosovo war (the
>>most blatant violation of international law ever since the concept was
>>embedded in the UN. It is amazing how stupid people are some times - if we
>>talk about a war for months and take it to the UN they complain, if we just
>>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be just fine
>>
>>Damian Popolo
>>PhD candidate
>>Newcastle University
>>Department of Politics
>>Room 301
>>
>>.
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>><DIV>
>><DIV>Dear Damian,</DIV>
>><DIV> </DIV>
>><DIV>I understand what you are talking about. The essence of my
>intervention
>is that we are witnessing something new. The necessity to take a stand vis a
>vis US in Iraq crisis on the one hand and the pressures to act decisively in
>the face of ongoing European expansion on the other hand
>> combine to bring forth a new European quality, better suited to what some
>call a post modern condition. Lets wait and see.</DIV>
>><DIV> </DIV>
>><DIV>Yurek<BR> </DIV>
>><DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></DIV>
>><DIV> </DIV>
>><DIV id=receivestrings>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A
>href="mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk";>n0705590</A></DIV>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> 17 luty 2003
>09:33:23</DIV>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A
>href="mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl";>Yurek Gierus</A>; <A
>href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A></DIV>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> RE: new
>immanence
>- Chirac cheats!</DIV></DIV>
>><DIV> </DIV>Dear Yurek,<BR><BR>I really wish I coould agree with your
>diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to me <BR>that the European 'peace movement
>
>is nothing more than fluke. Where was <BR>Chirac during the Kosovo crisis?
>Ordering his planes to bomb civilian tragets <BR>in Yugoslavia.
>>Chirac is no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage over this: as <BR>war on
>Irak will be declared, the French are going to be right in it, bombing
><BR>as
>they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. The Germans and the French
><BR>are just trying to ride a wave of popular sentiment which is to
>>tally <BR>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists during the Kosovo
>war (the <BR>most blatant violation of international law ever since the
>concept was <BR>embedded in the UN. It is amazing how stupid people are some
>times - if we <BR>talk about a war for months and take it to the UN
>> they complain, if we just <BR>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be
>just
>fine<BR><BR>Damian Popolo<BR>PhD candidate<BR>Newcastle
>University<BR>Department of Politics<BR>Room 301<BR><BR><BR> </DIV>
>><DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></DIV>
>><DIV> </DIV>
>><DIV id=receivestrings>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A
>href="mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk";>n0705590</A></DIV>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> 17 luty 2003
>09:33:23</DIV>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A
>href="mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl";>Yurek Gierus</A>; <A
>href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A></DIV>
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> RE: new
>immanence
>- Chirac cheats!</DIV></DIV>
>><DIV> </DIV>Dear Yurek,<BR><BR>I really wish I coould agree with your
>diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to me <BR>that the European 'peace movement
>
>is nothing more than fluke. Where was <BR>Chirac during the Kosovo crisis?
>Ordering his planes to bomb civilian tragets <BR>in Yugoslavia.
>>Chirac is no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage over this: as <BR>war on
>Irak will be declared, the French are going to be right in it, bombing
><BR>as
>they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. The Germans and the French
><BR>are just trying to ride a wave of popular sentiment which is to
>>tally <BR>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists during the Kosovo
>war (the <BR>most blatant violation of international law ever since the
>concept was <BR>embedded in the UN. It is amazing how stupid people are some
>times - if we <BR>talk about a war for months and take it to the UN
>> they complain, if we just <BR>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be
>just
>fine<BR><BR>Damian Popolo<BR>PhD candidate<BR>Newcastle
>University<BR>Department of Politics<BR>Room 301<BR><BR>. </TD></TR>
>><TR>
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>>--------------Boundary-00=_2SYGCJD0000000000000--
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>Damian Popolo
>PhD candidate
>Newcastle University
>Department of Politics
>Room 301
>
>.
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><DIV><EM> </EM>
><P>Dear Damian, </P>
><P>What you write about diplomatic wheeling and dealing may be true. This is 
what they do most of the time. My posting was to try to draw attention to a 
new twist in global affairs. Mass public divergence with official decision 
making is new (see the statistics), hence I thought Negri's conc
>ept of "multitude" might be handy. Rough split in NATO is new. Intense 
stand-off in the Security Council is new. We have to account for all this. 
</P>
><P>You say it is no different from good old modernity. But note, 
international law and the legitimacy of international institutions are being 
challenged. The prospect of war is entertained on the grounds of a "just war" 
(not self defence ) and bears the signs of a police action rather than a
> traditional war. For the first time legitimacy is being given to a 
"preventive" war - does it not remind you of a futuristic Hollywood movie with 
Tom Cruz where the police arrested the criminals before they committed crimes 
(note also the morale from that movie). Has not a permanent state o
>f emergency become a substitute for the rule of international law?</P>
><P>On a different occasion I wrote on this list about my attitude to post 
modernity. I wrote that I rather agree with Anthony Giddens’s view that post 
modernity is a “radicalisation of modernity” and thus does not imply a rupture 
and discontinuity. However, I also said that analyticall
>y it is quite helpful.</P>
><P>Best wishes,</P>
><P>Yurek</P>
><P><BR> </P></DIV>
><DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>
><DIV id=receivestrings>
><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A 
href="mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk";>n0705590</A></DIV>
><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> 18 luty 2003 
09:56:04</DIV>
><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A 
href="mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl";>Yurek Gierus</A>; <A 
href="mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk";>Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk</A>; 
<A href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A></DIV>
><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> RE: new immanence 
- Chirac cheats!</DIV></DIV>
><DIV> </DIV>Dear Yurek,<BR><BR>That is fair enough. But:<BR><BR>1) Have you 
ever thought that this could also be a concerted strategy (i.e,<BR>the French 
and the Germans complain for a little while, so that the myth of<BR>dissent, 
debate and space for different opinions can really be pr
>eserved.<BR>Then, when we all happily bomb Irak, Rumsfield can declare - You 
see? The<BR>Frenchies were against it now they in favour of it, we allowed 
for<BR>constructutive debate and dialogue but finally even they saw the light. 
What<BR>about the French themselves, who finally find somethi
>ng to be proud of in<BR>their President? Same thing goes - Ah well, Chirac 
was making a stand AGAINST<BR>the war, but if he is now doing it...it must 
really have been necessary).<BR>This is no speculation, it's common practice. 
During Ramboulliet the French<BR>were allowed to dissent for a w
>hile (AND the Yanks PRECISELY USED THE FRENCH<BR>TO SUPPORT THE ARGUMENT 'OH 
WEEL, WE TRIED EVERYTHING WE COULD TO GIVE PEACE A<BR>LAST CHANCE...) but in 
the end, French planes were right there in the middle<BR>of it. Murky 
buisiness - and you will know by now that in yesterday's talks<BR>wi
>th Blair the Germans finally a 'accepted' the idea that violence might 
be<BR>necesary in the last instance...<BR><BR>2) Frankly, I don't see this new 
european quality you are talking about. As<BR>an european, great believer in 
the Ventotene Manifesto, I would definitely<BR>welcome it. A real
>ly new European quality would imply a decent CFSP, Solana<BR>doing his job 
properly, and something that resembles a task force (the<BR>proposed figure of 
60.000 men is totally derisory. We could not even<BR>intervene in half of 
Kosovo with that). Finally, I fail to grasp the<BR>connection wi
>th this 'post-modern' condition. On the contrary, i would argue<BR>that we 
are witnessing Modernity in all its strenght.<BR><BR>><BR>>Dear 
Damian,<BR>><BR>>I understand what you are talking about. The essence of my 
intervention is<BR>>that we are witnessing something new. The
>necessity to take a stand vis a<BR>>vis US in Iraq crisis on the one hand and 
the pressures to act decisively in<BR>>the face of ongoing European expansion 
on the other hand combine to bring<BR>>forth a new European quality, better 
suited to what some call a post modern<BR>>condi
>tion. Lets wait and see.<BR>><BR>>Yurek<BR>><BR>>-------Original 
Message-------<BR>><BR>>From: n0705590<BR>>Date: 17 luty 2003 09:33:23<BR>>To: 
Yurek Gierus; <A 
href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A><BR>>Subject: RE: 
new immanence - Chirac ch
>eats!<BR>><BR>>Dear Yurek,<BR>><BR>>I really wish I coould agree with your 
diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to<BR>>me<BR>>that the European 'peace 
movement' is nothing more than fluke. Where was<BR>>Chirac during the Kosovo 
crisis? Ordering his planes to bomb civilian<BR
>>>tragets<BR>>in Yugoslavia. Chirac is no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage 
over this:<BR>>as<BR>>war on Irak will be declared, the French are going to be 
right in it,<BR>>bombing<BR>>as they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. 
The Germans and the French<BR>>are j
>ust trying to ride a wave of popular sentiment which is 
totally<BR>>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists during the Kosovo 
war (the<BR>>most blatant violation of international law ever since the 
concept was<BR>>embedded in the UN. It is amazing how stupid people are some
>times - if we<BR>>talk about a war for months and take it to the UN they 
complain, if we just<BR>>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be just 
fine<BR>><BR>>Damian Popolo<BR>>PhD candidate<BR>>Newcastle 
University<BR>>Department of Politics<BR>>Room 301<BR>><BR>&g
>t;<BR>><BR>>-------Original Message-------<BR>><BR>>From: n0705590<BR>>Date: 
17 luty 2003 09:33:23<BR>>To: Yurek Gierus; <A 
href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A><BR>>Subject: RE: 
new immanence - Chirac cheats!<BR>><BR>>Dear Yurek,<BR>><BR
>>>I really wish I coould agree with your diagnosis, but I don't. It seems 
to<BR>>me<BR>>that the European 'peace movement' is nothing more than fluke. 
Where was<BR>>Chirac during the Kosovo crisis? Ordering his planes to bomb 
civilian<BR>>tragets<BR>>in Yugoslavia. Chirac i
>s no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage over this:<BR>>as<BR>>war on Irak 
will be declared, the French are going to be right in it,<BR>>bombing<BR>>as 
they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. The Germans and the 
French<BR>>are just trying to ride a wave of popular sentim
>ent which is totally<BR>>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists 
during the Kosovo war (the<BR>>most blatant violation of international law 
ever since the concept was<BR>>embedded in the UN. It is amazing how stupid 
people are some times - if we<BR>>talk about a war for m
>onths and take it to the UN they complain, if we just<BR>>decided to 
bomb...well, that seems to be just fine<BR>><BR>>Damian Popolo<BR>>PhD 
candidate<BR>>Newcastle University<BR>>Department of Politics<BR>>Room 
301<BR>><BR>>.<BR>>--------------Boundary-00=_2SY
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id=INCREDITEXTREGION style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; CURSOR: auto; 
FONT-FAMILY:<BR>Arial" width="100%"><BR>><DIV><BR>><DIV>Dear 
Damian,</DIV><BR>><DIV>
> </DIV><BR>><DIV>I understand what you are talking about. The essence of my 
intervention<BR>is that we are witnessing something new. The necessity to take 
a stand vis a<BR>vis US in Iraq crisis on the one hand and the pressures to 
act decisively in<BR>the face of ong
>oing European expansion on the other hand<BR>> combine to bring forth a new 
European quality, better suited to what some<BR>call a post modern condition. 
Lets wait and see.</DIV><BR>><DIV> </DIV><BR>><DIV>Yurek<BR> </DIV><BR>><
>;DIV id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original 
Message-------</I></DIV><BR>><DIV> </DIV><BR>><DIV id=receivestrings><BR>><DIV 
dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A<BR>href="<A hre
>f="mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk";>mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk
</A>">n0705590</A></DIV><BR>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" 
<i><B>Date:</B></I> 17 luty 2003<BR>09:33:23</DIV><BR>><DIV dir=ltr 
style="FONT-
>SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A<BR>href="<A 
href="mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl";>mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl</A>">Yurek 
Gierus</A>; <A<BR>href="<A 
href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A>"&<A 
href="mailto:gt;wsn@csf.co
>lorado.edu">gt;wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A></A></DIV><BR>><DIV dir=ltr 
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> RE: new immanence<BR>- Chirac 
cheats!</DIV></DIV><BR>><DIV> </DIV>Dear Yurek,<BR><BR>I r
>eally wish I coould agree with your<BR>diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to me 
<BR>that the European 'peace movement'<BR>is nothing more than fluke. Where 
was <BR>Chirac during the Kosovo crisis?<BR>Ordering his planes to bomb 
civilian tragets <BR>in Yugoslavia.<BR>>Chira
>c is no pacifist, and I can bet my mortgage over this: as <BR>war on<BR>Irak 
will be declared, the French are going to be right in it, bombing 
<BR>as<BR>they did in Kosovo and in the first Gulf war. The Germans and the 
French<BR><BR>are just trying to ride a wave of popular
> sentiment which is to<BR>>tally <BR>ephemeric...again, were well all this 
pacifists during the Kosovo<BR>war (the <BR>most blatant violation of 
international law ever since the<BR>concept was <BR>embedded in the UN. It is 
amazing how stupid people are some<BR>times - if
> we <BR>talk about a war for months and take it to the UN<BR>> they complain, 
if we just <BR>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be 
just<BR>fine<BR><BR>Damian Popolo<BR>PhD 
candidate<BR>Newcastle<BR>University<BR>Department of Politics<BR>
>Room 301<BR><BR><BR> </DIV><BR>><DIV 
id=IncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original 
Message-------</I></DIV><BR>><DIV> </DIV><BR>><DIV id=receivestrings><BR>><DIV 
dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
><i><B>From:</B></I> <A<BR>href="<A 
href="mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.uk";>mailto:Damian.Popolo@newcastle.ac.
uk</A>">n0705590</A></DIV><BR>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" 
<i><B>Date:</B></I> 17 luty 200
>3<BR>09:33:23</DIV><BR>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" 
<i><B>To:</B></I> <A<BR>href="<A 
href="mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl";>mailto:j.gierus@chello.pl</A>">Yurek 
Gierus</A>; <A<BR>href="<A href="mailto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>mai
>lto:wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A>"&<A 
href="mailto:gt;wsn@csf.colorado.edu";>gt;wsn@csf.colorado.edu</A></A></DIV><BR
>><DIV dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> RE: new 
immanence<BR>- Chirac cheats!</DIV></DIV><BR>>
><DIV> </DIV>Dear Yurek,<BR><BR>I really wish I coould agree with 
your<BR>diagnosis, but I don't. It seems to me <BR>that the European 'peace 
movement'<BR>is nothing more than fluke. Where was <BR>Chirac during the 
Kosovo crisis?<BR>Ordering his planes
> to bomb civilian tragets <BR>in Yugoslavia.<BR>>Chirac is no pacifist, and I 
can bet my mortgage over this: as <BR>war on<BR>Irak will be declared, the 
French are going to be right in it, bombing <BR>as<BR>they did in Kosovo and 
in the first Gulf war. The Germans and th
>e French<BR><BR>are just trying to ride a wave of popular sentiment which is 
to<BR>>tally <BR>ephemeric...again, were well all this pacifists during the 
Kosovo<BR>war (the <BR>most blatant violation of international law ever since 
the<BR>concept was <BR>embedded in
> the UN. It is amazing how stupid people are some<BR>times - if we <BR>talk 
about a war for months and take it to the UN<BR>> they complain, if we just 
<BR>decided to bomb...well, that seems to be just<BR>fine<BR><BR>Damian 
Popolo<BR>PhD candidate<BR>Ne
>wcastle<BR>University<BR>Department of Politics<BR>Room 301<BR><BR>. 
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Damian Popolo
PhD candidate
Newcastle University
Department of Politics
Room 301