< < <
Date Index
> > >
Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI
by Alan Spector
23 October 2002 13:27 UTC
< < <
Thread Index
> > >
Well, hopefully, if we need to discuss this more, we can do it privately, so that the whole list does not have to receive extra e-mail. I do want to respond to your critique of my comment :
 
> "It should make other members of the WSN list uneasy that this type of
> posting appears on a list with which we are all associated."
 
I still defend that comment. I, like others, belong to several other e-mail lists. I have had some generally good (in my opinion) messages rejected by those lists because on occasion, I used language that was perceived as being outside the boundaries of acceptable discourse for that list. And do you know what? Sometimes, the list moderators actually were correct, and my wording was inappropriate, although the general content  of my message was appropriate.  Whether or not the content of John Leonard's message was appropriate, the use of the term "hitler's excesses" was not appropriate, and as a long time member of this list, I, and others, have the right and responsibility to dissociate ourselves from that particular comment.
 
As to whether President Bush knew in advance that the attack on New York would happen, that is another debate. I do believe that governments, including the US government, create provocations--actions that they commit in order to blame on opponents. From the Alamo to the Maine to the Lusitania, to Reichstag to (I'm not sure about Pearl Harbor) the Gulf of Tonkin imaginary attack on U.S. forces to hundreds of police agents in the US anti- Vietnam War movement to Italian police posing as anarchist demonstrators during recent protests in Genoa, it should be obvious that there have been provocations and conspiracies in the past and present. But I suspect that it would have been and easier and more effective provocation to blow up a dozen or so schools scattered all around the US and blame that on supposed terrorists. It would kill fewer people, would only destroy a few million dollars worth of property (instead of tens of billions), and would probably create a more intense fear because people in all regions of the USA would feel threatened. Blowing up the World Trade Center? It doesn't make sense.
 
On a more theoretical/analytical level, I would debate the implication that uncovering these conspiracies is the most important way to stop war. Obviously it is important to expose conspiracies.  But it is also important to expose the workings and processes of advanced capitalism-imperialism as a system. Otherwise, the peace movement will simply be substituting one supporter of war and oppression for another.  On a day to day basis,  the empires of Britain, the US, France, Germany, etc. kill hundreds of thousands of people. Obviously a war against Iraq will kill hundreds of thousands more and must be stopped. But conspiracy theories can sometimes play into an "anti-Bush" (or anti-Goldwater if we would could refer back to the election of 1964) sentiment that would end up politically disarming the peace movement by having them focus on individuals (or even individual corporations) in ways that  might distract people away from understanding the fundamental dynamics of oppression.
 
Respectfully,
Alan Spector
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
is statement by Mr. Grizzard:
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Grizzard" <the_allfather@hotmail.com>
To: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI

> Mr. Spector,
>
> You wrote:
>
> "It should make other members of the WSN list uneasy that this type of
> posting appears on a list with which we are all associated."
>
> Forgive me if I inject my own opinion here, but this comes across to me as
> more of a smear than a criticism.
>
> "I don't know anything about John Leonard."
>
> John Leonard is the publisher of British political scientist Nafeez Mossadeq
> Ahmed's seminal book on 9/11, "The War on Freedom." This book should be the
> standard university text for any serious student of the prehistory and
> history of 9/11.
>
> After the book was published in Italy, Gore Vidal took out a full page ad in
> a major Italian daily praising it, and it subsequently sold out the first
> two printings. Subsequent to that, one million Italians converged on Rome to
> protest the Bush administration's desire to preemptively strike Iraq.
>
> And while working on Cynthia McKinney's last campaign, after she had
> requested through me that the 9/11 research community do all it could to
> educate the voters of Georgia's 4th Congressional District about the facts
> of 9/11, Mr. Leonard donated a case of books to the campaign and was
> supportive of my own personal efforts.
>
> In my opinion, the single greatest way to derail the administrations plans
> for open-ended war is to expose the administration's clearly-established
> criminal negligence and probable complicity on 9/11. Mr. Ahmed's brilliant
> scholarly work has provided us with an indispensible tool to try to make
> that happen. As Leonard Lewin wrote in his political satire "Report From
> Iron Mountain":
>
> "A more expedient reason for pursuing the investigation of alternate ways
> and means to serve the current functions of war is narrowly political. It is
> possible that one or more major soveriegn nations may arrive, through
> ambiguous leadership, at a position in which a ruling administrative class
> may lose control of basic public opinion or of its ability to rationalize a
> desired war." [Iron Mountain, P. 91]
>
> Leonard writes that a transfer from a war system to a peace system carries
> many dangers and difficulties. But he concludes that contingency plans for a
> transfer to a peace system must be fully investigated and prepared for the
> above reason: Through ambiguous leadership, a ruling class may lose its
> ability to rationalize a desired war... and then peace could start breaking
> out all over the place whether we're ready for it or not.
>
> This is how I see the situation we're in today. The administration is going
> to need a Gulf of Tonkin/Pearl Harbor/Operation Northwoods to pin on Iraq,
> because they HAVE lost control of public opinion. And some of the credit for
> that goes to educators like John Leonard and Nafeez Ahmed.
>
> "If we can't criticize each other in hopes of making our work better, then,
> what is it we are trying to accomplish?"
>
> I quite agree, and please allow me to offer my own criticism. A derogatory
> phrase like "this type of posting," sounds more like an attempt to dismiss
> Mr. Leonard's post than an attempt to improve it.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Buddy Grizzard
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Alan Spector" <
spectors@netnitco.net>
> To: "Buddy Grizzard" <
the_allfather@hotmail.com>, <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI
> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:07:32 -0500
>
>
> I don't know anything about John Leonard. I did not attack him personally. I
> only said that the use of the term "hitler's excesses"  was a terrible
> choice of words. It was a terrible choice of words, and I stand by my
> comments.
>
> Nothing else in my comments made any other criticism of John Leonard.
> Presumably he, and Buddy Grizzard, and all others who want to help prevent
> future genocides should respect a criticism in the spirit of making the
> movement against genocide stronger, and more able to resist the kinds of
> distracting counter-attacks from the rightwing that might occur when we do
> use words inappropriately. If we can't criticize each other in hopes of
> making our work better, then, what is it we are trying to accomplish?
>
> Alan Spector
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Buddy Grizzard" <
the_allfather@hotmail.com>
> To: <
wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Anglo-German competition for Zionist support in WWI
>
>
>  >
>  > I know of few people who are doing more right now to prevent FUTURE
>  > genocides than John Leonard. If you think he should have used the word
>  > "atrocities" instead of "excesses," that's certainly a defensible
> opinion.
>  > But to suggest that John is engaging in apologetics by using a milder
> word
>  > than you would have preferred is simple absurdity.
>  >
>  > Buddy Grizzard
>  > Press Secretary, Garrett for Governor, Georgia Green Party
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get a speedy connection with MSN Broadband. Join now!
>
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
>
< < <
Date Index
> > >
World Systems Network List Archives
at CSF
Subscribe to World Systems Network < < <
Thread Index
> > >