Re: Defining the Islamic State

I think that Alan may have earlier jumped to conclusions about Charles'
wider political views, but Charles does repeat something that I wonder
about.  This is that "Islam had better join the human race in the 21st
Century".

Does he mean that, in the 21st century, Islam should join the human
race?  If not, does he mean that Islam is behind the times, and needs to
progressively adapt to the modern (civilised?) world?

Either way, Charles would be mistaken.  In the first case, Islam is a
very human religion, and very real humans practice it, as is testified
by the human blood they bleed when pricked.  In the second case, Islam
is not uncilivised, and is far from regressive, except in the case of it
being a philosophy that places ultimate origin upon the supernatural -
something it shares with all other religions.  On the contrary, Islam is
marked from Christianity's reliance upon blind faith by its insistance
that muslims use rationality to justify their belief.  This was shown to
be the case historically; the emergence of european civilisation was
partly dependent upon the civilising influence of mediaeval Islamic
social and scientific achievenments, without which people may still be
reading Aristotle and Augustine, and not Einstein or Marx.  That it has
not been responsible for much of what we call progress today, may be
more to do with its inclination against a dependence on technology than
anything else - a characteristic that it shares with every civilisation
on the planet bar the one that Charles seems to be suggesting is the
more advanced.  Advanced, maybe, but in what direction.........?

In summary, instead of simply assuming that the ideologues in the
streets of Gaza and Lahore represent everything about Islam, we might
all benefit from thinking about what is actually written in the Qoran,
which can be viewed in English at http://islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Danny Dayus


-----Original Message-----
From: wsn-owner@csf.colorado.edu [mailto:wsn-owner@csf.colorado.edu] On
Behalf Of Charles J. Reid
Sent: Friday 08 March 2002 06:25am
To: Alan Spector
Cc: Seyed Javad; wsn@csf.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State


Hi, Mr. Spector!

One more before I end the day.

1. It appears to me that your first point is a bit disingenuous, since a
reasonable person ought to be able to conclude that if I categorize the
Catholic Church -- the epitome of Christianity -- as a cult, there would
be an unwritten presupposition that anything Christian falls into the
same category. One cannot reasonable list here all 10,000 variations of
bible- holding groups.

2. You second point is petitio principi. Our discussion was not focussed
on Christianity, but on Islam. It is fairly clear -- to answer your
point, though -- that "born again" The Traitor in the White House is the
stupidist person ever to live there, a fair representative of the
members of his cult, and his handling of the terrorist crisis is the
biggest strategic mistake any American decision maker has ever made.
Alas, the cost will probably be beyond our imagination. You see, I think
he should have treated the Taliban like human beings -- members of the
human race, homo sapiens, all one of us, so to speak -- and worked
toward a peaceful, conciliatory solution rather than a solution that
allows his military to test their laser-directed 10,000 bombs on a
nation whose citizens did not participate in the crime he was trying to
address. I'll stop with that point, but we've known for decades that the
American government has been a threat to people everywhere. But we can
say that, up to now, and this lesser educated person who can place his
finger on the button, the US has not been specifically directed toward
using weapons of mass destruction which threaten the survival of
humanity -- since it's a corporate culture, and advocating such a policy
would put a dent in their profits.

3. I don't know how you can sneak Africa into this discussion, but it's
off subject -- unless you mean Islamic Africa, and if so, I maintain my
argument.

4. Finally, you speak of the "crimes of Imperialism." That's shifting
the discussion -- leading me to suppose you agree with my earlier
positions or cannot focus on one point at a time. But I think that you
know as well as I or anyone else that "crimes of power and territory"
have been part of human history since the struggles between the Greeks
and the Persians, Ancient Chinese warlords, and all of the civilizations
of the Middle East. "Imperialism" is only a code word that identifies
you.

5. So to get back to my main point, Islam had better join the human race
in the 21st Century, or it will implode due to its built in
irrationalities -- unlesss it can hold out until it achieves
military-technical parity, when we'll all be standing at the edge of the
precipice. All else you mention is moot or irrelevant to this truth.

I think enough said now. For the outcomes do not depend on what we
dispute here.

//CJR

On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Alan Spector wrote:

> 1) Your use of the word "cult" to describe all of Islam is revealing, 
> since you don't use that word to describe all of Christianity.
>
> 2) The fact that you see Islam as "a threat to humanity" is revealing,

> since you don't seem to think that the Christian nations, such as the 
> U.S., with all its nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, and 
> along with Europe, its role in the oppression and death of so many 
> millions over the past 100 years constitutes a "threat to 
> humanity".......but maybe you don't regard what is happening in Africa

> as a "threat to humanity" because you are defining "humanity" in terms

> of "people like you", whatever that is.
>
> 3) Anyone can quote anything about "people being afraid to face the 
> truth." (and quoting that great "humanitarian"...T.S. Eliot, at that!)

> Attaching your ideas to such an expression doesn't mean that what you 
> say is true......one can easily toss that same expression back at you 
> and your unwillingness to face the reality of the crimes of 
> imperialism.
>
> ================
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
> To: "Alan Spector" <spectors@netnitco.net>
> Cc: "Seyed Javad" <seyedjavad@hotmail.com>; <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 7:20 PM
> Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State
>
>
> > Mr. Spector, yes, I generally consider organized religion a bane of 
> > humanity, as the child molestation of the Catholic Church is an 
> > indicator, along with other similar cults. But my comments about 
> > Islam has to be taken in context of the message I was responding to,

> > as well as my own life experience in interacting with individuals of

> > the Islam faith. I did not say they are evil, or anything like that.

> > But a significant number of the 1.2 billion members of the cult fit 
> > the description I offered in my earlier note. I believe I am 
> > presenting facts, perhaps not nice, ("Humankind cannot acccept much 
> > truth", to paraphrase T.S. Eliot.). No, I have not met all 1.2 
> > billion members of Islam, but I have come in contact with a 
> > significant statistical sample of "educated" members of the cult to 
> > be personally satisfied that my characterization is accurate. And 
> > now I will also add that Islam is a threat to the survival of 
> > mankind, unless it moves it's ideology closer to the 21st Century. 
> > This is not a derogatory remark on an particular individual, but it 
> > is a reflection on the current state of Islam as a cult and the 
> > impact too many of it's theological leaders has on individuals it 
> > influences across the globe.
> >
> > //CJR
> >
> >
> >  On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Alan Spector wrote:
> >
> > > I won't go into a long discussion of Islam. I can find much to 
> > > criticize
> in
> > > all fundamentalist religions, and in fact, in aspects of 
> > > "mainstream" religion as well. However, I am a member of the WSN 
> > > list, and as such, I feel a responsibility to dissociate myself 
> > > from the comments of "Charles
> J.
> > > Reid" reprinted below.  I am astounded that such shallow, 
> > > narrow-minded, stereotyping appears on a list such as this and 
> > > would not want anyone
> who
> > > reads it to assume that it represents any kind of sizeable 
> > > percentage of
> the
> > > WSN list.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Alan Spector
> > >
> > >
> > > P.S. Has Mr. Reid paid much attention to the protection of child
> molesting
> > > priests by the Catholic Church or the late night Protestant 
> > > Christian "Healers" on late night television, or the preaching of 
> > > extreme
> Zionists.
> > > The one sided stereotyping of "Islam" in general is appalling.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
> > > To: "Seyed Javad" <seyedjavad@hotmail.com>
> > > Cc: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State
> > >
> > >
> > > > My response to this piece is simply this: Modern Islam is 
> > > > dominated by forces who lack rationality and the "scientific 
> > > > method". The state of Islam today is about where the Catholic 
> > > > Church was at the time of
> Giordano
> > > > Bruno and Galileo. There is no theological leadership to move 
> > > > the
> Islamic
> > > > community from this absolutist, ideocratic state. What is needed

> > > > IS a change of state. As long as madrasses where "the West is 
> > > > the enemy and
> if
> > > > you die killing you live'll forever with 70 virgins" is taught,
> instead of
> > > > reading, mathematics, and science, Islam will continue to be a
> primitive
> > > > community -- by and large -- and a point may be reached that the

> > > > ony alternative other cultures have is "contain it" like we did 
> > > > the Soviet Union, so it will implode on the basis of its own 
> > > > irrationalities.
> > > >
> > > > //CJR
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Seyed Javad wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In this article, one of the Contemporary Muslim thinkers 
> > > > > define what
> an
> > > > > Islamic State is:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > seyedjavad
> > > > > From: "Muzaffar Iqbal"
> > > > > To: "Muzaffar Iqbal"
> > > > > Subject: quantum note for friday march 1
> > > > > Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:06:16 -0700
> > > > > Friday March 01, 2002-- Zilhaj 16,1422 A.H.
> > > > > Defining the Islamic State
> > > > > Dr Muzaffar Iqbal
> > > > > The writer is a freelance columnist
> > > > > How would a contemporary Islamic state differ from non-Islamic
> states?
> > > > > Who
> > > > > would rule this state and how? What would it be like to live 
> > > > > in such
> a
> > > > > state? What would such a state do with the enormous gap 
> > > > > between the economic, scientific and technological status of 
> > > > > Muslims and
> > > non-Muslims?
> > > > > These are some of the questions that need clear answers before

> > > > > any
> such
> > > > > state can come into existence. These are also the questions 
> > > > > which
> should
> > > > > have been answered by Pakistan's Islamic parties in this 
> > > > > election
> year,
> > > > > if
> > > > > they are serious.
> > > > > Muslims believe that the Qur'an and Sunnah are two living 
> > > > > sources
> that
> > > > > are
> > > > > as relevant today as they were fourteen hundred years ago when

> > > > > they
> were
> > > > > first revealed. They also believe that these twin sources 
> > > > > contain
> all
> > > the
> > > > > guiding principles that are needed by them now. At least this 
> > > > > is the position of the normative Islamic tradition and it is 
> > > > > held by all
> > > Muslims
> > > > > who have their spiritual and intellectual roots in the Islamic
> > > tradition.
> > > > > The real question, then, is how to translate the guiding 
> > > > > principles
> > > found
> > > > > in
> > > > > these two sources into a practical model that will work in our
> times.
> > > > > This
> > > > > is the task and challenge that Muslims have been actively 
> > > > > pursuing
> for
> > > > > more
> > > > > than a century, after waking up from their slumber, they found
> > > themselves
> > > > > colonized and realized that something has to be done. The most
> immediate
> > > > > challenge was to get rid of the colonizing powers. But in the 
> > > > > very struggle for independence, there was something 
> > > > > fundamentally wrong: no where
> in
> > > > > the
> > > > > Muslim world did people realize that this struggle for 
> > > > > independence
> has
> > > > > to
> > > > > be based on Islam and not on nationalism.
> > > > > This wrong footing was exactly what the French and the British
> > > colonizers
> > > > > had hoped for. They had actively sought to create an 
> > > > > intellectual northern alliance, which would call for a 
> > > > > western-style government and demand independence on the model 
> > > > > of Britain and France. And when the native resources had been 
> > > > > drenched and the cost of maintaining direct
> control
> > > on
> > > > > the colonies was becoming more than what they were willing to 
> > > > > pay,
> the
> > > > > colonizers departed leaving behind the firm grip of an
> administrative,
> > > > > educational and ruling structure so that it could be governed
> through
> > > > > remote
> > > > > control.
> > > > > Thus, Muslims in their own traditional lands were randomly 
> > > > > divided
> into
> > > > > contemporary states, each governed by a system which ensured 
> > > > > their continuous enslavement. For centuries, these people had 
> > > > > lived in
> mutual
> > > > > reliance, though not always in harmony. Between Hijaz and the 
> > > > > great steppes of Central Asia, there was a vast territory that

> > > > > was and still
> remains
> > > > > the
> > > > > home of Muslims. But then it was linked together through a 
> > > > > chain of
> > > great
> > > > > cities which were also centers of learning. And while certain 
> > > > > rulers
> at
> > > > > certain times brought huge armies against other Muslim rulers,

> > > > > the
> Hajj
> > > > > and
> > > > > trade caravans traversed the Silk Route and continued to serve

> > > > > as
> the
> > > > > most
> > > > > important vehicle for the flow of ideas and goods. All of this

> > > > > was shattered with the occupation of Muslim lands by 
> > > > > Europeans. And none of this was restored after their 
> > > > > departure. This is a fundamental
> > > > > point that needs to be understood in no uncertain terms. The
nation
> > > > > states
> > > > > that have emerged in the post World War II era are inherently
> incapable
> > > > > of
> > > > > independent existence; this is also an economic impossibility.

> > > > > Thus
> no
> > > > > amount of reform would make it possible for these countries to

> > > > > be self-sufficient and truly independent states with enough 
> > > > > human and material resources to be free of IMF bondage. One 
> > > > > cannot make a circle out of
> a
> > > > > square, no matter how one bangs it around.
> > > > > Given these fact, what is the route to real independence and 
> > > > > an
> > > honorable
> > > > > existence? How can Muslims regain control of their destinies? 
> > > > > How
> can
> > > > > they
> > > > > live a life that is not defined and dictated by the new Great 
> > > > > Axis
> of
> > > > > Evil:
> > > > > the United States of America, Britain and Israel? This is the
> question
> > > on
> > > > > which all Muslim intellectuals and thinkers need to focus. The

> > > > > post-September 11 events had hijacked all efforts from this 
> > > > > most important task faced by Muslims; it is time to return to 
> > > > > it. Those who think that they can achieve this by forming some

> > > > > kind of underground network that kidnaps reporters and kills 
> > > > > them are
> clearly
> > > > > working against this cause. Likewise, those who wish to take 
> > > > > up arms against their own rulers, create nothing but chaos. 
> > > > > Similarly, those who are
> > > busy
> > > > > in
> > > > > propagating a made in America version of Islam are also 
> > > > > playing with fire. Islam, let us reiterate, is not merely a 
> > > > > private affair that takes
> up
> > > > > public
> > > > > face on Fridays; Islam is a living tradition, defined by an 
> > > > > all-encompassing code. Indeed, Allah has called Himself, 
> > > > > al-Muheet, the all
> encompassing.
> > > > > So, the task before Muslims is really clear. They need to 
> > > > > devise a practical strategy to regain control of their destiny

> > > > > as a community of
> believers.
> > > > > The
> > > > > defining factor for their existence is neither sectarian, nor 
> > > > > tribal
> or
> > > > > national identity, but an identity based on the Qur'an. This 
> > > > > is the unambiguous position of the Qur'an itself. It declares 
> > > > > in no
> uncertain
> > > > > terms
> > > > > that Allah has made different communities and the best of
> communities is
> > > > > the
> > > > > one which holds on to the rope of Allah. This is the community

> > > > > of
> > > > > believers:
> > > > > "You are the best community that has been sent forth to
mankind [in
> > > that]
> > > > > you enjoin right and forbid wrong and have faith in Allah" (Q.
> 3:110).
> > > > > In this task of regaining freedom, the very first thing to be
> understood
> > > > > is
> > > > > that Islam cannot be imposed by somehow gaining hold of the
> government
> > > > > and
> > > > > bringing out bands of militia. This is not the way of Islam. 
> > > > > The
> > > struggle
> > > > > of
> > > > > so-called Islamic political parties to win elections and form
> > > governments
> > > > > to
> > > > > implement Islam is doomed. And so are those who demand 
> > > > > imposition of Islam by state decrees. True, there are some 
> > > > > injections of Islamic Law
> (the
> > > > > Shariah) that require state legislation. But most of Islam 
> > > > > does not require state laws for its implementation.
> > > > > An Islamic state emerges; it is not established. An Islamic
state
> comes
> > > > > into
> > > > > existence through the most natural of ways, it is not a state 
> > > > > that
> is
> > > > > established by decrees. An Islamic state is the end result of 
> > > > > a long process of education, cultivation of Islamic ethos in 
> > > > > private as well as
> public
> > > > > life. An Islamic state is like a beautiful tree that comes 
> > > > > into
> > > existence
> > > > > because someone once planted a seed. An Islamic state is 
> > > > > defined by
> the
> > > > > character of its inhabitants, not by the writ of law. The 
> > > > > character of the inhabitants of an Islamic state is the 
> > > > > defining factor for the Islamic state. Given the current 
> > > > > conditions of the Muslim
> world,
> > > > > the
> > > > > greatest missing element in the emergence of an Islamic state 
> > > > > is
> none
> > > > > other
> > > > > than this defining factor. And this is what requires the 
> > > > > greatest attention of all those who wish to establish an 
> > > > > Islamic state. In the simplest of terms, an Islamic state is a

> > > > > state in which the
> prime
> > > > > goal of the inhabitants of the land is to be a model of the 
> > > > > Qur'anic teachings. These are the people with whom Allah is 
> > > > > pleased and who
> are
> > > > > pleased with Allah, as the Qur'an tells us. This is the only 
> > > > > route
> to an
> > > > > Islamic state. Its most important constituent is none other 
> > > > > than the
> > > men,
> > > > > women and children who live in it.
> > > > > Thus, any organization, political or non-political, which 
> > > > > wants to contribute toward the emergence of an Islamic state, 
> > > > > need to
> concentrate
> > > > > on
> > > > > its most important building block: individual human beings. 
> > > > > But how?
> > > What
> > > > > are the ways to do so? The answer must be sought in another
> question:
> > > How
> > > > > did the Prophet of Islam do it? And that is the topic for the 
> > > > > next column.
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > > Center for Islam and Science
> > > > > www.cis-ca.org
> > > > > ------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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