Re: Defining the Islamic State

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>--- Original Message ---
>From: Alan Spector <spectors@netnitco.net>
>To: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
>Date: 3/7/02 6:32:50 PM
>

>1) Your use of the word "cult" to describe all of Islam is revealing,
since
>you don't use that word to describe all of Christianity.
>
>2) The fact that you see Islam as "a threat to humanity" is
revealing, since
>you don't seem to think that the Christian nations, such as
the U.S., with
>all its nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, and along
with Europe,
>its role in the oppression and death of so many millions over
the past 100
>years constitutes a "threat to humanity".......but maybe you
don't regard
>what is happening in Africa as a "threat to humanity" because
you are
>defining "humanity" in terms of "people like you", whatever
that is.
>
>3) Anyone can quote anything about "people being afraid to face
the truth."
>(and quoting that great "humanitarian"...T.S. Eliot, at that!)
 Attaching
>your ideas to such an expression doesn't mean that what you
say is
>true......one can easily toss that same expression back at you
and your
>unwillingness to face the reality of the crimes of imperialism.
>
>================
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
>To: "Alan Spector" <spectors@netnitco.net>
>Cc: "Seyed Javad" <seyedjavad@hotmail.com>; <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 7:20 PM
>Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State
>
>
>> Mr. Spector, yes, I generally consider organized religion
a bane of
>> humanity, as the child molestation of the Catholic Church
is an indicator,
>> along with other similar cults. But my comments about Islam
has to be
>> taken in context of the message I was responding to, as well
as my own
>> life experience in interacting with individuals of the Islam
faith. I did
>> not say they are evil, or anything like that. But a significant
number of
>> the 1.2 billion members of the cult fit the description I
offered in my
>> earlier note. I believe I am presenting facts, perhaps not
nice,
>> ("Humankind cannot acccept much truth", to paraphrase T.S.
Eliot.). No, I
>> have not met all 1.2 billion members of Islam, but I have
come in contact
>> with a significant statistical sample of "educated" members
of the cult to
>> be personally satisfied that my characterization is accurate.
And now I
>> will also add that Islam is a threat to the survival of mankind,
unless it
>> moves it's ideology closer to the 21st Century. This is not
a derogatory
>> remark on an particular individual, but it is a reflection
on the current
>> state of Islam as a cult and the impact too many of it's theological
>> leaders has on individuals it influences across the globe.
>>
>> //CJR
>>
>>
>>  On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Alan Spector wrote:
>>
>> > I won't go into a long discussion of Islam. I can find much
to criticize
>in
>> > all fundamentalist religions, and in fact, in aspects of
"mainstream"
>> > religion as well. However, I am a member of the WSN list,
and as such, I
>> > feel a responsibility to dissociate myself from the comments
of "Charles
>J.
>> > Reid" reprinted below.  I am astounded that such shallow,
narrow-minded,
>> > stereotyping appears on a list such as this and would not
want anyone
>who
>> > reads it to assume that it represents any kind of sizeable
percentage of
>the
>> > WSN list.
>> >
>> > Respectfully,
>> >
>> > Alan Spector
>> >
>> >
>> > P.S. Has Mr. Reid paid much attention to the protection
of child
>molesting
>> > priests by the Catholic Church or the late night Protestant
Christian
>> > "Healers" on late night television, or the preaching of
extreme
>Zionists.
>> > The one sided stereotyping of "Islam" in general is appalling.
>> >
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
>> > To: "Seyed Javad" <seyedjavad@hotmail.com>
>> > Cc: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State
>> >
>> >
>> > > My response to this piece is simply this: Modern Islam
is dominated by
>> > > forces who lack rationality and the "scientific method".
The state of
>> > > Islam today is about where the Catholic Church was at
the time of
>Giordano
>> > > Bruno and Galileo. There is no theological leadership
to move the
>Islamic
>> > > community from this absolutist, ideocratic state. What
is needed IS a
>> > > change of state. As long as madrasses where "the West
is the enemy and
>if
>> > > you die killing you live'll forever with 70 virgins" is
taught,
>instead of
>> > > reading, mathematics, and science, Islam will continue
to be a
>primitive
>> > > community -- by and large -- and a point may be reached
that the ony
>> > > alternative other cultures have is "contain it" like we
did the Soviet
>> > > Union, so it will implode on the basis of its own irrationalities.
>> > >
>> > > //CJR
>> > >
>> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Seyed Javad wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > In this article, one of the Contemporary Muslim thinkers
define what
>an
>> > > > Islamic State is:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > seyedjavad
>> > > > From: "Muzaffar Iqbal"
>> > > > To: "Muzaffar Iqbal"
>> > > > Subject: quantum note for friday march 1
>> > > > Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:06:16 -0700
>> > > > Friday March 01, 2002-- Zilhaj 16,1422 A.H.
>> > > > Defining the Islamic State
>> > > > Dr Muzaffar Iqbal
>> > > > The writer is a freelance columnist
>> > > > How would a contemporary Islamic state differ from non-Islamic
>states?
>> > > > Who
>> > > > would rule this state and how? What would it be like
to live in such
>a
>> > > > state? What would such a state do with the enormous
gap between the
>> > > > economic, scientific and technological status of Muslims
and
>> > non-Muslims?
>> > > > These are some of the questions that need clear answers
before any
>such
>> > > > state can come into existence. These are also the questions
which
>should
>> > > > have been answered by Pakistan's Islamic parties in
this election
>year,
>> > > > if
>> > > > they are serious.
>> > > > Muslims believe that the Qur'an and Sunnah are two living
sources
>that
>> > > > are
>> > > > as relevant today as they were fourteen hundred years
ago when they
>were
>> > > > first revealed. They also believe that these twin sources
contain
>all
>> > the
>> > > > guiding principles that are needed by them now. At least
this is the
>> > > > position of the normative Islamic tradition and it is
held by all
>> > Muslims
>> > > > who have their spiritual and intellectual roots in the
Islamic
>> > tradition.
>> > > > The real question, then, is how to translate the guiding
principles
>> > found
>> > > > in
>> > > > these two sources into a practical model that will work
in our
>times.
>> > > > This
>> > > > is the task and challenge that Muslims have been actively
pursuing
>for
>> > > > more
>> > > > than a century, after waking up from their slumber,
they found
>> > themselves
>> > > > colonized and realized that something has to be done.
The most
>immediate
>> > > > challenge was to get rid of the colonizing powers. But
in the very
>> > > > struggle
>> > > > for independence, there was something fundamentally
wrong: no where
>in
>> > > > the
>> > > > Muslim world did people realize that this struggle for
independence
>has
>> > > > to
>> > > > be based on Islam and not on nationalism.
>> > > > This wrong footing was exactly what the French and the
British
>> > colonizers
>> > > > had hoped for. They had actively sought to create an
intellectual
>> > > > northern
>> > > > alliance, which would call for a western-style government
and demand
>> > > > independence on the model of Britain and France. And
when the native
>> > > > resources had been drenched and the cost of maintaining
direct
>control
>> > on
>> > > > the colonies was becoming more than what they were willing
to pay,
>the
>> > > > colonizers departed leaving behind the firm grip of
an
>administrative,
>> > > > educational and ruling structure so that it could be
governed
>through
>> > > > remote
>> > > > control.
>> > > > Thus, Muslims in their own traditional lands were randomly
divided
>into
>> > > > contemporary states, each governed by a system which
ensured their
>> > > > continuous enslavement. For centuries, these people
had lived in
>mutual
>> > > > reliance, though not always in harmony. Between Hijaz
and the great
>> > > > steppes
>> > > > of Central Asia, there was a vast territory that was
and still
>remains
>> > > > the
>> > > > home of Muslims. But then it was linked together through
a chain of
>> > great
>> > > > cities which were also centers of learning. And while
certain rulers
>at
>> > > > certain times brought huge armies against other Muslim
rulers, the
>Hajj
>> > > > and
>> > > > trade caravans traversed the Silk Route and continued
to serve as
>the
>> > > > most
>> > > > important vehicle for the flow of ideas and goods.
>> > > > All of this was shattered with the occupation of Muslim
lands by
>> > > > Europeans.
>> > > > And none of this was restored after their departure.
This is a
>> > > > fundamental
>> > > > point that needs to be understood in no uncertain terms.
The nation
>> > > > states
>> > > > that have emerged in the post World War II era are inherently
>incapable
>> > > > of
>> > > > independent existence; this is also an economic impossibility.
Thus
>no
>> > > > amount of reform would make it possible for these countries
to be
>> > > > self-sufficient and truly independent states with enough
human and
>> > > > material
>> > > > resources to be free of IMF bondage. One cannot make
a circle out of
>a
>> > > > square, no matter how one bangs it around.
>> > > > Given these fact, what is the route to real independence
and an
>> > honorable
>> > > > existence? How can Muslims regain control of their destinies?
How
>can
>> > > > they
>> > > > live a life that is not defined and dictated by the
new Great Axis
>of
>> > > > Evil:
>> > > > the United States of America, Britain and Israel? This
is the
>question
>> > on
>> > > > which all Muslim intellectuals and thinkers need to
focus. The
>> > > > post-September 11 events had hijacked all efforts from
this most
>> > > > important
>> > > > task faced by Muslims; it is time to return to it.
>> > > > Those who think that they can achieve this by forming
some kind of
>> > > > underground network that kidnaps reporters and kills
them are
>clearly
>> > > > working against this cause. Likewise, those who wish
to take up arms
>> > > > against
>> > > > their own rulers, create nothing but chaos. Similarly,
those who are
>> > busy
>> > > > in
>> > > > propagating a made in America version of Islam are also
playing with
>> > > > fire.
>> > > > Islam, let us reiterate, is not merely a private affair
that takes
>up
>> > > > public
>> > > > face on Fridays; Islam is a living tradition, defined
by an
>> > > > all-encompassing
>> > > > code. Indeed, Allah has called Himself, al-Muheet, the
all
>encompassing.
>> > > > So, the task before Muslims is really clear. They need
to devise a
>> > > > practical
>> > > > strategy to regain control of their destiny as a community
of
>believers.
>> > > > The
>> > > > defining factor for their existence is neither sectarian,
nor tribal
>or
>> > > > national identity, but an identity based on the Qur'an.
This is the
>> > > > unambiguous position of the Qur'an itself. It declares
in no
>uncertain
>> > > > terms
>> > > > that Allah has made different communities and the best
of
>communities is
>> > > > the
>> > > > one which holds on to the rope of Allah. This is the
community of
>> > > > believers:
>> > > > "You are the best community that has been sent forth
to mankind [in
>> > that]
>> > > > you enjoin right and forbid wrong and have faith in
Allah" (Q.
>3:110).
>> > > > In this task of regaining freedom, the very first thing
to be
>understood
>> > > > is
>> > > > that Islam cannot be imposed by somehow gaining hold
of the
>government
>> > > > and
>> > > > bringing out bands of militia. This is not the way of
Islam. The
>> > struggle
>> > > > of
>> > > > so-called Islamic political parties to win elections
and form
>> > governments
>> > > > to
>> > > > implement Islam is doomed. And so are those who demand
imposition of
>> > > > Islam
>> > > > by state decrees. True, there are some injections of
Islamic Law
>(the
>> > > > Shariah) that require state legislation. But most of
Islam does not
>> > > > require
>> > > > state laws for its implementation.
>> > > > An Islamic state emerges; it is not established. An
Islamic state
>comes
>> > > > into
>> > > > existence through the most natural of ways, it is not
a state that
>is
>> > > > established by decrees. An Islamic state is the end
result of a long
>> > > > process
>> > > > of education, cultivation of Islamic ethos in private
as well as
>public
>> > > > life. An Islamic state is like a beautiful tree that
comes into
>> > existence
>> > > > because someone once planted a seed. An Islamic state
is defined by
>the
>> > > > character of its inhabitants, not by the writ of law.
>> > > > The character of the inhabitants of an Islamic state
is the defining
>> > > > factor
>> > > > for the Islamic state. Given the current conditions
of the Muslim
>world,
>> > > > the
>> > > > greatest missing element in the emergence of an Islamic
state is
>none
>> > > > other
>> > > > than this defining factor. And this is what requires
the greatest
>> > > > attention
>> > > > of all those who wish to establish an Islamic state.
>> > > > In the simplest of terms, an Islamic state is a state
in which the
>prime
>> > > > goal of the inhabitants of the land is to be a model
of the Qur'anic
>> > > > teachings. These are the people with whom Allah is pleased
and who
>are
>> > > > pleased with Allah, as the Qur'an tells us. This is
the only route
>to an
>> > > > Islamic state. Its most important constituent is none
other than the
>> > men,
>> > > > women and children who live in it.
>> > > > Thus, any organization, political or non-political,
which wants to
>> > > > contribute toward the emergence of an Islamic state,
need to
>concentrate
>> > > > on
>> > > > its most important building block: individual human
beings. But how?
>> > What
>> > > > are the ways to do so? The answer must be sought in
another
>question:
>> > How
>> > > > did the Prophet of Islam do it? And that is the topic
for the next
>> > > > column.
>> > > > ----------------------------------------------
>> > > > Center for Islam and Science
>> > > > www.cis-ca.org
>> > > > ------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>____________________________________________________________________________
>> > ____
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>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>