Do they use to lynch the fascists in the United States
nowadays?
You don't see, nazis (or how you call or label the
lynchmen of the system's functions) are not the problem.
What, then, should we conclude about evil from this
examination of the social origins of the early Nazi Party? Should we deduce from
this study that great evil may be brought into being when people do not examine
the ramifications of choices made on the basis of rational self-interest? We
certainly must. Yet any anticipation of the societal consequences of individual
choice making is almost certain to fail. Evil may be wrought regardless of how
deliberate people are in scrutinizing the potential consequences of their
choices. It is highly unlikely that the millions of self-interested German
citizens voting for or joining the Nazi Party in 1932 could have
realized at the time that their decision would culminate in first dictatorship,
then a world war, and finally the murder of millions of innocent people between
1939 and 1945. Thus, I must conclude that evil may have ordinary and rational
origins. This applies to pre-1933 Germans as much as to all other
peoples.
William Brustein, The Logic of Evil: The Social
Origins of the Nazi Party, 1925-1933. p. 184.
Although I have learned that the modern time greens and
the nazis have quite a lot common in environmental thinking, it still can be
wise not to sterilize all the fascist and their green cooperators. Let's try
to help them be more internally consinent.
And let's remember their (rational?/social?/ideological?)
reasons too.
Personally I think that it is problematic and even
dangerous always to refer in Mussolini and Hitler when is dealed
with modern fascism which likely is not in the same form and
clothes. Who knows what is still coming. There is some
logic...
Hope the best
Asko Ojaluoto
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: United Front WITH
Fascism?
Well, are you proposing we just invite the fascists to lunch? You know,
the line that says -- "humanists, socialists, Nazis, Death Squads
--- after all we're all just HUMAN and have the right to express ourselves
freely......it was just TERRIBLE that those NASTY Partisans in France and
Greece and Italy and Yugoslavia made NASTY WAR against the fascists instead of
just letting them have their way!!!"
We are talking about FASCISTS, here, not just
your friendly working class neighbor who voted for Bush.
I wasn't proposing a "Final Solution" -- (if by that you mean rounding up
and killing anyone "suspected of harboring pro-fascist sympathies.") But if
active fascists don't belong in prison, then who does? Personally, I think the
Red Army handled the Nazis just fine, in contrast to the U.S. government,
which protected thousands of those child-killers after the war. "Barry
Brooks" was the one who seemed to propose "working together with the Nazis" --
don't you have any critical comments towards that proposal?
It continues to amaze me how some people who sit around working out
schemes to save the world seem to have so little genuine understanding/empathy
about the massive misery that most people are experiencing.
And therefore, how their plans to save the world don't take into account
finding some way to stop the mass murderers from continuing their genocide. It
will take more than organizing ecologically friendly bicycle trips with
Nazis to save the planet.
Alan Spector
====================================================================
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:14
AM
Subject: Re: United Front WITH
Fascism?
Alan,
Fascinating and insightful commentary! Could you please
elaborate a bit more
on exactly what you mean by your last two
sentences? I quote "Fascists are
the worst form of pollution and
waste. We can start cleaning up the planet by
getting rid of the
fascists, not offering them advice." Do you foresee any
sort of
final solution to this human "waste disposal" problem?
Thanks,
Milo Jones
In a message dated 25/05/2001 04:48:25 GMT
Daylight Time,
spectors@netnitco.net writes:
Barry Brooks
writes:
To avoid problems we need to build an economy that tries to
minimize
consumption. Communism, capitalism, or even fascists
could strive to
survive. It's only a question of informing them that
they have a way to
become internally consistent. See my web
site for more about the use of
durability to conserve.
(Boldface added by me for emphasis--A.S.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
My comment:
Has WSN sunk so low as to advise
"fascists" how to survive by becoming
"internally consistent?" This list
(WSN) started out as a way to explore the
ways that various
"national economies" are connected internationally, and
this exploration
was done utilizing DATA, historical, economic, sociological,
political.
And as sometimes stated, a nearly always implied assumption, was
solidarity with the oppressed and exploited, especially the workers and
peasants of Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
Then came
the occasional activist pronouncements on WSN (which were often
relevant) but which gradually began to deteriorate into all kinds of
individuals (generally but not always with little data) offering
all kinds
of utopian schemes spun out of their "middle class" heads to
"rearrange" the
world, generally with little grasp of history, economics
and especially the
fundamentally ruthless nature of the capitalist
State(s).
And now it has come to this: environmentally concerned
individuals (not bad
in itself, of course) completely depoliticizing
their environmentalism to the
point where "fascists" are being given
advice on how to survive! Perhaps
Pinochet or the Death Squads of El
Salvador could be "informed" on how to
follow the Nazi's occasional
practice of lining prisoners up in a row so as
to be able to kill
several of them all at once with only one bullet. Think of
all the
bullets that could be saved! And how it could help limit the amount
of
lead that might otherwise pollute the soil!
This is where the logic
of abandoning a class analysis goes -- to calling for
unity with the
worst, most murderous monsters the human mind can imagine,
supposedly
for the purpose of fighting a common enemy--waste and
pollution--while
those monsters not only continue to commit genocide, but,
incidentally
are the ones responsible for the waste and pollution as well,
which is a
POLITICAL-ECONOMIC problem, and not mainly a problem of
technology, or
engineering, or "educating those in power." Fascists are the
worst
form of pollution and waste. We can start cleaning up the planet by
getting rid of the fascists, not offering them advice.
Alan
Spector
=====================================================================
----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Brooks" <durable@earthlink.net>
To:
<wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to
Corporate globalization
>
> We can't wait for the
2nd coming of anyone.
>
> We can't expect any existing
movement or ideology to answer the new problems
> we face.
>
> We can't solve anything by being against or for canned ideas or
fighting any
> system.
>
> We can propose ways to fix
existing systems, of whatever stripe. The
> problem is not in
any system. It is in the total lack of understanding of
> how
things work that we fall into debating useless trivia.
>
> My
I repeat what I believe is a positive suggestion. I would be
interested
> in any comments WSN subscribers might have.
>
> ************
>
> If an item lasted twice as long we
would only need to produce half as many
> to supply demand. As we
move backwards to consume even more energy we only
> speed the coming
of exhaustion of non-renewable energy. As I understand it,
> the need
to make jobs requires a consumer society. The increase in
>
consumption is all that has kept machines from causing unemployment.
But,
> the growth goal of our economy is at odds with
conservation, which requires
> using less.
>
> Needless
to say, business types don't like the idea of increasing durability
>
to conserve. Engineers like it a lot, but they don't enter into policy
> debates. Economists know about to possibility of using
increased durability
> to conserve, but they never mention it.
>
> To avoid problems we need to build an economy that tries
to minimize
> consumption. Communism, capitalism, or even
fascists could strive to
> survive. It's only a question of informing
them that they have a way to
> become internally consistent.
See my web site for more about the use of
> durability to
conserve.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~durable
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Barry Brooks
>
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