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Well, are you proposing we just invite the fascists to lunch? You know, the
line that says -- "humanists, socialists, Nazis, Death Squads ---
after all we're all just HUMAN and have the right to express ourselves
freely......it was just TERRIBLE that those NASTY Partisans in France and Greece
and Italy and Yugoslavia made NASTY WAR against the fascists instead of just
letting them have their way!!!"
We are talking about FASCISTS, here, not just
your friendly working class neighbor who voted for Bush.
I wasn't proposing a "Final Solution" -- (if by that you mean rounding up
and killing anyone "suspected of harboring pro-fascist sympathies.") But if
active fascists don't belong in prison, then who does? Personally, I think the
Red Army handled the Nazis just fine, in contrast to the U.S. government, which
protected thousands of those child-killers after the war. "Barry Brooks"
was the one who seemed to propose "working together with the Nazis" -- don't you
have any critical comments towards that proposal?
It continues to amaze me how some people who sit around working out schemes
to save the world seem to have so little genuine understanding/empathy about the
massive misery that most people are experiencing.
And therefore, how their plans to save the world don't take into account
finding some way to stop the mass murderers from continuing their genocide. It
will take more than organizing ecologically friendly bicycle trips with
Nazis to save the planet.
Alan Spector
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----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: United Front WITH
Fascism?
Alan,
Fascinating and insightful commentary! Could you please
elaborate a bit more
on exactly what you mean by your last two sentences?
I quote "Fascists are
the worst form of pollution and waste. We can
start cleaning up the planet by
getting rid of the fascists, not offering
them advice." Do you foresee any
sort of final solution to this
human "waste disposal" problem?
Thanks,
Milo Jones
In a message dated 25/05/2001 04:48:25 GMT Daylight Time,
spectors@netnitco.net writes:
Barry Brooks writes:
To
avoid problems we need to build an economy that tries to minimize
consumption. Communism, capitalism, or even fascists could strive
to
survive. It's only a question of informing them that they have a way to
become internally consistent. See my web site for more about the
use of
durability to conserve. (Boldface added by me for
emphasis--A.S.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
My comment:
Has WSN sunk so low as to advise
"fascists" how to survive by becoming
"internally consistent?" This list
(WSN) started out as a way to explore the
ways that various
"national economies" are connected internationally, and
this exploration
was done utilizing DATA, historical, economic, sociological,
political.
And as sometimes stated, a nearly always implied assumption, was
solidarity with the oppressed and exploited, especially the workers and
peasants of Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
Then came the
occasional activist pronouncements on WSN (which were often
relevant) but which gradually began to deteriorate into all kinds of
individuals (generally but not always with little data) offering all
kinds
of utopian schemes spun out of their "middle class" heads to
"rearrange" the
world, generally with little grasp of history, economics
and especially the
fundamentally ruthless nature of the capitalist
State(s).
And now it has come to this: environmentally concerned
individuals (not bad
in itself, of course) completely depoliticizing their
environmentalism to the
point where "fascists" are being given advice on
how to survive! Perhaps
Pinochet or the Death Squads of El Salvador could
be "informed" on how to
follow the Nazi's occasional practice of lining
prisoners up in a row so as
to be able to kill several of them all at once
with only one bullet. Think of
all the bullets that could be saved! And
how it could help limit the amount
of lead that might otherwise pollute
the soil!
This is where the logic of abandoning a class analysis goes
-- to calling for
unity with the worst, most murderous monsters the human
mind can imagine,
supposedly for the purpose of fighting a common
enemy--waste and
pollution--while those monsters not only continue to
commit genocide, but,
incidentally are the ones responsible for the waste
and pollution as well,
which is a POLITICAL-ECONOMIC problem, and not
mainly a problem of
technology, or engineering, or "educating those in
power." Fascists are the
worst form of pollution and waste. We can
start cleaning up the planet by
getting rid of the fascists, not offering
them advice.
Alan Spector
=====================================================================
----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Brooks" <durable@earthlink.net>
To:
<wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to
Corporate globalization
>
> We can't wait for the
2nd coming of anyone.
>
> We can't expect any existing movement
or ideology to answer the new problems
> we face.
>
> We
can't solve anything by being against or for canned ideas or fighting any
> system.
>
> We can propose ways to fix existing
systems, of whatever stripe. The
> problem is not in any system.
It is in the total lack of understanding of
> how things work
that we fall into debating useless trivia.
>
> My I repeat what
I believe is a positive suggestion. I would be interested
> in
any comments WSN subscribers might have.
>
> ************
>
> If an item lasted twice as long we would only need to
produce half as many
> to supply demand. As we move backwards to
consume even more energy we only
> speed the coming of exhaustion of
non-renewable energy. As I understand it,
> the need to make jobs
requires a consumer society. The increase in
> consumption is all
that has kept machines from causing unemployment. But,
> the
growth goal of our economy is at odds with conservation, which requires
> using less.
>
> Needless to say, business types don't
like the idea of increasing durability
> to conserve. Engineers
like it a lot, but they don't enter into policy
> debates.
Economists know about to possibility of using increased durability
> to conserve, but they never mention it.
>
> To avoid
problems we need to build an economy that tries to minimize
>
consumption. Communism, capitalism, or even fascists could strive to
> survive. It's only a question of informing them that they have a way
to
> become internally consistent. See my web site for more about
the use of
> durability to conserve.
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~durable
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Barry Brooks
>
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