Re: cj> Re: Petros re/ 2001 RKM Manifesto

To Richard:
At 03:49 a.m. 10/01/01 +0000, answering a posting of mine you wrote:
"Capitalism means, BY DEFINITION, that the driving
engine of the economy is capital investment, attracted by
growth opportunities.  If we keep that paradigm, then the
pressure for economic well-being, requiring ongoing growth ...."

This seems to indicate, that  one part of our dispute is due to the fact
that we put very different meanings into the word: CAPITALISM. While you
only admit the extreme Laissez Faire variety, currently in vogue in
Anglo-Saxon countries, I feel that the term can be applied to any system,
where most means of production are in private hands and where the market
determines most prices.

Another point: 
Answering to Petros you said:
"In the societal and movement models we will be discussing, there are no
hierarchical power structures, and no one is 'in power'. There are means of
reaching decisions, and organizing collective activity, at whatever level -
but they do not involve hierarchies or coercion.
You ask "Is there an opposition?".  This presumes that the movement
involves only a majority of society, and that others are left out.  In the
kind of movement and society we'll be discussing, the question has little
meaning.  It would be like saying "Is there an opposition to society?"

Here are my comments:
1. You seem to believe, that the immense shortcomings of our present world
order must inevitably lead to your NONHIERACHICAL AND DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY. I
am afraid that fascist or communist dictatorships are a much likelier
outcome, if we do not succeed to REFORM the system.
2. No such Society has existed through human history; therefore nobody can
be sure that it would work.
2. Even if it could manage to function under normal circumstances, it is
almost impossible, that it could make and carry out the hard and painful
decisions required to stop the population growth and to introduce
sustainable economic policies.

Since there is little likelihood that we could agree on these points and
since nobody else seems to be interested, I suggest to terminate our
discussion now.

Regards                Paul