Re: MI, RP's, and the Problem of Scholastic Scientia

You are not totally convincing in saying that
Scholasticism, by way of chosing Aristotle against
Plato opened the way to the European Renaissance.
Galileo was a Platonist, for example, and so were many
others in Tuscany during the Renaissance. They were
actually neo-platonists, opposing scholasticism. At
any rate the crucial factor of the Renaissance was the
re-discovery of Ellenistic authors and works through
the Arabs (by Leonardo da Vinci and of course others).

"Fauth" and "Reason/Science" have been matter of great
debates. They are opposite to each other in that if I
believe something I am not going to check on that,
while if I want to be reasonable or rational, I'll do
the check. If I say: "I believe Mary loves me", as
opposed to "I know she loves me", I refuse to
positively check on that (or at least try, for example
by asking or observing her more carefully). 

That's why I think tha any speculation about God is a
matter of faith, and not of science - or even reason.
Because in the end you can never be sure of anything
in that area.

Francesco Ranci


--- Luke Rondinaro <larondin@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>  I’d agree with you up to a point … Problem is, it’s
> a little more complex than the difference between
> “oil” and “water” that doesn’t mix.  The operative
> distinction that must be drawn between “faith” and
> “reason” requires we answer the question, “what are
> ‘faith’ and ‘reason’ ?”
> One can’t just say “reason” is a matter of the
> “head” and “faith” is a matter of the heart. 
> Because, if we look closely at the writings of the
> Apostle Paul, the works of Tertulian and Origen, the
> scholarship of Augustine and Ambrose, and then
> onward right up until the Scholastics come on the
> European intellectual scene, we find that all this
> Christian tradition was as much about the “head” and
> intellectualized religious matters as it was about
> (if not more so) the “heart.”  In fact, the very
> distinction of the soul as being made up of
> Intellect and Will (a traditional, pre-Thomistic
> clarification in Christian thought) seems to leave
> small place for religious and spiritual “matters of
> the heart” that center mostly on emotionalism and
> affective concerns.  This is especially so regarding
> Patristic treatment of the “passions” and how these
> should be defused and/or re-routed before they led
> to the spiritual and physical downfall of people
> unusually stirred up by them.  
> 
> Spiritual (and religious) matters themselves were
> interpreted in terms of the Intellect and Will, and
> non-physicalities also were discussed in the same
> metaphysical fashion.  Spirituality was the act of
> putting yourself in the proper receptive state to
> accept religious truths that were taught to you
> and/or that came to you – or were more deeply
> revealed – via your prayers and meditations. 
> Theology, was the scientia  or broad-based of God
> and the things of God; more of an scholarly and
> speculative field and then only secondarily a field
> concerned with priestly formation and pastoral; it
> was never the same as “Religion” or “Doctrine” – it
> consisted of a scholarly extension of them. (…)
> 
> And, then, Scholasticism comes on the scene in the
> Latter Middle Ages and it unites “faith” and
> “reason” in a new form.  But, in light of what I
> just said, what is these “reason?”  It was
> Greco-Roman rationalism and more specifically,
> Aristotelian rationalism.  But here’s the catch! 
> The pre-Scholastic priest-intellectuals of the
> Christian tradition also believed in the harmony of
> the intellective function with Faith.  They however
> choose Plato as their patron, and not Aristotle (and
> in other cases many of the other Greco-Roman
> thinkers whose intellectual contributions were not
> lost to the Medieval/Western tradition).  The
> difference comes though to this.  Neoplatonism was
> made a function of their Christian-Catholic theology
> and not the other way around.  The truly
> revolutionary character of Scholasticism not only
> put faith and reason on an equal synthesized
> footing; it actually reinterpreted the entire
> Judeo-Christian tradition, Revelation, Scripture,
> and Doctrine in the light of the rationalist,
> Aristotelian universe.  The God of the Hebrews and
> the Apostles, the God who called himself “I AM WHO
> AM” was the Prime Mover of the Philosophers, was
> Pure Act, and so forth.  The universe (spiritual and
> physical) fell into place from there.  That was the
> revolutionary genius of the Scholastic movement in
> the Later Middle Ages; and in a very real way it
> opened the flood gates and gave birth to the
> European Renaissance.
> 
> **********
> 
> Now that I’ve said this, it’s time to move back to
> the heart of what I was talking about in my previous
> posting.  In terms of its logical, scientiaefic
> method and in terms of its philosophic base of
> ideas, how should Scholasticism be assessed in the
> light of modern Science and Social Science?  Based
> on its legalized structure as a framework of
> intellectual principles, how should it be assessed? 
> And, what sort of comparison/contrast should we draw
> between it and the modern study of Law.  And, here’s
> the clincher; is Scholasticism in its formulated
> ideas and presentation closer to the modern study of
> Law or the Sciences/Social Sciences?  (Note, I’m not
> talking necessarily about experimental/empirical
> methodology; what I’m talking about is how each of
> these field’s puts together its ideas) … From a
> world(-)systems perspective, how should we assess
> these larger issues?
> 
> I look forward to your insights on this matter.
> 
> All the best!
> 
> Luke R.
> 
>   francesco ranci <francescoranci@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Luke Rondinaro, any "theological-scientifical"
> mix is like a glass of oil and water: they don't go
> together. 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Francesco Ranci
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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