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Re: Taiwan, capitalism, socialism, and mass murder
by K.S.TSO
27 April 2001 08:56 UTC
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Dear WSN and Dr. Spector,
Thank you, you have restored my confidence in WSN as an open, scholastic and often objective channel for  learning.
Regards,
K.S.Tso.

Alan Spector wrote:

Milo Jones wrote this: the question of  scale & intentionality:  the two largest self-styled
socialist regimes (the USSR and the PRC) appear to have contributed directly
to the deaths of at least 40 million people between 1925 and 1965 (via
collectivisation of agriculture and the Great Leap Forward, respectively).
Capitalism probably contributed to a large  number of deaths during the same
period (some of which you name below), but often deaths from capitalism are
the result of neglect rather than intentional, large-scale attempts to alter
the human condition/world system.====================================================================Comment: What do you mean "Intentional?"  That Stalin woke up every morning and said "How many children can I kill today? I just LOVE killing children?"  Surely the deaths during the socialist regimes were the result of attempts to construct societies that would be able to feed their populations and industrialize their countries, presumably in the minds of many of the leaders, "for the good of the people."  In any case, the use of the word "intentionality" as does the use of the phrase "second degree murder"  versus "manslaughter" is an attempt to imply that the socialist regimes actively did want to harm/injure, if not kill those who died, while capitalism just does it unknowingly, and by accident.  Yeah, like the Vietnam War was just an accident. It's like saying: "The U.S. government really didn't know any civilians would die. It was just kind of like drunk driving, ya' know." Once you KNOW that actions are causing deaths, it moves from "neglectful manslaughter" to "second degree murder" by the way. And as to "scale", there is no question that the scale of deaths CAUSED by capitalist neglect, abuse, outright fascism, and war far exceeds the inflated numbers we often get about the USSR and China. And by the way, Red dictatorships usually make more of an effort to avoid killing children than Capitalist dictatorships. Not absolutely, but in general.  Just ask "Congressional Medal of Honor War Hero" ex-Senator Kerry. Yes, there were needless deaths of many, many people in the USSR and China. But, for example, during the famine in the 1930's Socialist USSR, how many millions died of malnutrition and disease in capitalist India, China, central Africa, and even the USA? And why attribute the USSR deaths to intentionality? There was close to a Civil War in the Ukraine and the leadership feared an invasion from the West (which did happen and kill 20 million, by the way) and therefore felt a need for massive collectivization as part of the industrialization process to defend the revolution. As others have pointed out, the process of capital accumulation has been a bloody mess everywhere for the past number of centuries. No, I am certainly not defending every action in the USSR/China and of course there were needless deaths. But Milo Jones' well-intentioned explanation is just another version of the standard ideology that somehow wants to hang onto the idea that imbedded in capitalism itself is more "freedom" than Marxism could provide. But that is a late 1800's "Little House on the Prairie" fantasy about capitalism, not the realities of monopoly capitalism, fascism, imperialism and war. Alan Spector P.S. -- Even peaceful "Little House" was built on the corpses many, many Native American (Indian) people
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