Re: [FixGov] Re: -> Dispensing with hierarchy <-

From RKM to Tom Osher:

<The 'sustainable communities now' movement is an important
part of the overall movement.  Those folks are doing the
research & development for the rest of us.  They are one of
the constituencies which can network in consensus with other
constituencies, and help build the fabric of the global
movement.  They ground the movement in economic reality.>

I believe the FixGov and Alternate Culture groups should be working more
in this area -- starting with the CLCs to bring small groups together and
then working to create sustainable communities.  We can talk about
economics and fixing government for months on end as we have here and
still not get anywhere.  Where the rubber hits the pavement is in
sustainable living and figuring out individually how to get there and
then working to share that knowledge with others.  

We will go where our consciousness leads us -- if it's around and around
in the same old cycle that's where we will go -- if our consciousness is
based in creating a higher reality in living for all of humanity, then
that is where we will go.     

marguerite     
   

On Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:50:45 +0000 "Richard K. Moore"
<richard@cyberjournal.org> writes:
> 
>
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> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:01:23 -0800
> From: David C. Korten
> Organization: PCDForum
> To: "Richard K. Moore" <richard@cyberjournal.org>
> Subject: Re: ->  Dispensing with hierarchy  <-
> 
> Richard: This is a brilliant response--deep, poetic, and 
> profound. Thanks for sharing it.
> 
> David Korten
> 
>
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> From: JFadiman@aol.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:38:23 EST
> Subject: Re: ->  Dispensing with hierarchy  <-
> To: renaissance-network@cyberjournal.org
> 
>     rkm>>  Don't give up hope.  It's always darkest before the dawn.
> 
> it looks real close to dawn in Washington these days so I supsoe 
> I should be  a bit cheerful.
> 
> cheers to you in any case.
> 
> =============
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Is there a saying, 'the darker the night, the brighter the dawn'?
> 
> I hope so,
> rkm
> 
>
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> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:12:46 -0800
> To: "Richard K. Moore" <richard@cyberjournal.org>
> From: Rosa Zubizarreta <rosalegria@igc.org>
> Subject: Re: ->  Dispensing with hierarchy  <-
> 
> Thank you so much for this response to Warren that you
> sent out to the list. I loved it.
> 
> it made explicit many things about your vision i had sensed
> but had not heard so clearly from you before (though i admit i've 
> not
> managed to read everything on your site yet, so maybe it's all there
> and i've just not seen it!)
> 
> all best wishes,
> 
> Rosa
> 
>
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> 1/12/2001, Warren Wager wrote to WSN et al:
>     > Returning to that archaic localized, self-sufficient
>     economy and culture is out of the question for all but a
>     handful of civilized folk.  They don't want to go there and
>     they won't.  We live in a globalized interdependent world. 
>     I want my white Burgundy and my Thai noodles for dinner. 
>     Don't you?
> 
> Dear Warren,
> 
> I fear you leap to unwarrented conclusions.
> 
> The aspect of some hunter-gatherer societies that I
> suggested emulating was _not their self-sufficiency, nor
> their being bound to the local, but rather their liberty,
> their egalitarian process, and their scalable
> non-hierarchical power structure.  The point is to dispense
> with hierarchy, not with trade.  The topic was politics, not
> economics.
> 
> From the perspective of sustainability, we certainly want to
> swing the balance back toward the local, if for no other
> reason than to avoid excessive use of energy for transport. 
> If today we depend, say, 20% on the local and 80% on the
> global, then we need to move this more toward 80% local and
> 20% global.  And that global '20%' would be things of real
> value or interest (White Burgundy), rather than things we
> can grow or make in our own backyard.  I'm not saying that
> we legislate this, but that things will naturally go this way 
> once we install an economic system which reflects real costs
> and real benefits, and which does not permit cartels and 
> monopolies.
> 
> 
>     > I believe that the only responsible answer to the world
>     problematique at this juncture in time is a concerted,
>     planet-wide political movement with structure, fighting
>     force, and ideological consensus able to match and
>     over-match the immense powers arrayed against it.
> 
> That is precisely what I've been describing.
> 
> 
>     > The anarchist model, however it may be suited to a still
>     later and, one hopes, more beneficent time, does not work
>     for now.
> 
> How do you leap to _this conclusion?
> 
> puzzled,
> rkm
> 
>
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> From: Mofwoofoo Woofuaza <Bagelhole1@aol.com>
> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:03:49 EST
> Subject: Re: ->  Dispensing with hierarchy  <-
> To: richard@cyberjournal.org, et al
> Sender: wsn-owner@csf.colorado.edu
> 
>     rkm>> Those 99%, with 'no commitment to revolutionary
>     transformation' are, as you bluntly put it, ignorant of
>     their circumstances.  This ignorance needs to be overcome.
> 
> Dear Richard,
> 
> I admire what you are attempting to do. I would like to
> suggest a few things from my experience as a grassroots
> activist:
> 
> 1. Its not just a matter of ignorance, it more a case of
> denial. Its not words thats going to wake up these people,
> its a "critical mass" situation that will finally bring them
> around. That's why I advocate building in a practical way,
> non-hierarchical, low-tech, or high tech (if you can afford
> it), sustainable communities now, starting with growing your
> own food. (see <A
> HREF="http://www.bagelhole.org/">bagelhole.org: home
> page</A>, under hyperlink "vertical aquaponics")
> 
> 2. One thing you have not grasped yet, perhaps, is that
> capitalism/hierarchies are tied in, in a big way, to
> "sovereign entities" (i.e. nations, states, dictatorships,
> corporations, governments, etc.). This things are taken for
> granted. But in the world, you refer to before 10,000 years
> ago, people didn't "own" land. As long as these sovereign
> entities exist, we will continue to have all the problems we
> have, if you think about it. You call for decentralization,
> well, this is what I'm talking about too.
> 
> Most Organically,
> Mofwoofoo Woofuaza
> San Francisco
> 
> ================
> 
> Dear Mofwoofoo,
> 
> I understand what you're saying about denial.  I'd put it
> this way, speaking very roughly.  There are 5% who initiate,
> 20% who are early adapters, and 75% who never do anything
> until they see their friends and neighbors doing it.  The
> movement itself is what will attract most people, regardless
> of the details of its program, and that is very frightening.
> That's what enables things like fascism.
> 
> The 'sustainable communities now' movement is an important
> part of the overall movement.  Those folks are doing the
> research & development for the rest of us.  They are one of
> the constituencies which can network in consensus with other
> constituencies, and help build the fabric of the global
> movement.  They ground the movement in economic reality.
>    
> Your 'sovereign entities' are all examples of hierarchy.
> 
> Down with The Wall!
> rkm
> http://cyberjournal.org
> 
>
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> 
> 
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> 
> 

Marguerite Hampton
Executive Director - Turtle Island Institute
EcoPilgrim@juno.com
http://tii-kokopellispirit.org