Re: Contradictions of an election in an imperialist country/contradictio

Let me clarify Alan's excellent response to my point. My point about
saying that others do draw distinctions between Gore and Bush is a simple
one. Outside the Left and the fringe right, most people do draw
distinctions between the two candidates. If we do not respect the people's
perceptions of these distinctions then we will be de-legitimated, not Gore
or Bush. Like I said, this does not mean we have to accept that
perception, but we better act as if we do if we want to convince
others. In other words, like any good sociologist we must be prepared to
climb inside the point of view of those we are organizing, for better or
for worse. For those who feel afraid of the Republicans and feel like they
have a place to go in the Democratic party (a shrinking group) we must
respect that perception and work with it (it doesn't mean we have to
accept it). Such is the contradictary nature of organzing. The last parts
of Alan's post are excellent and deserve much contemplation by all of
us. Talmadge

****************************************************************
* Talmadge Wright                               (773) 508-3451 *
* Dept. of Sociology/Anthropology           FAX:(773) 508-7099 *
* Loyola University Chicago                                    *
* 6525 N. Sheridan Rd.                                         *
* Chicago, Illinois 60626                                      *
****************************************************************

On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Alan Spector wrote:

> Talmadge makes some very good points and some points that I think are very 
>wrong.  I emphatically do not agree with the following:
> 
> "To use the argument that Gore is just as bad is simply not true and will be 
>dismissed outright by those we are trying to reach."
> 
> Saying something is "simply not true" does not prove anything. In fact, it IS 
>true. Gore IS as bad as Bush. With all due respect to the Roe v. Wade/Supreme 
>Court argument, the difference in deaths caused by a Gore presidency versus a 
>Bush presidency will be virtually insignificant, and, as I said, it is 
>difficult to win people to the understanding that imperialism must be 
>destroyed while asking them to support imperialists.  Furthermore, there are 
>plenty of venues where many of the people we are trying to reach fully well 
>understand how bad Gore is. After all, about half didn't vote, and while some 
>of them are definitely pro-capitalist, and some are cynical and not much use 
>to a serious anti-capitalist movement, there are many of that 50million who 
>wisely do understand that none of the politicians are any good. Certainly in 
>my discussions with students, my anti-Bush/Gore discussions have been well 
>received by many who do not regard it as "hot air". 
> 
> BUT--
> Surpisingly, I don't disagree all that much with Talmadge's post.  I do 
>believe that there are plenty of venues to organize in, besides the Democratic 
>Party. But organizing in ANY venue means compromise. Paying taxes is a 
>compromise. Taking my paycheck from the state of Indiana undermines my ability 
>to denounce the government. Giving grades undermines my ability to explain why 
>we need an egalitarian society. Talmadge has a good point. There are many 
>people involved in PTA's, block clubs, unions, the NAACP, and yes, even the 
>Nader campaign, the Democratic Party, and (gasp, I wouldn't have said this 20 
>years ago...) many churches. And many of the people involved in those 
>organizations/institutions may actually be more winnable, because they are 
>activists with a social conscience, than many of the "grouchy cynics" who 
>don't vote but don't do anything else either!
> 
> So I admit that it is complicated. And I do believe that in order to "win 
>over/ raise the consciousness?" of many of those people, it will be necessary 
>for some "revolutionary Marxists" to get actively involved in the groups that 
>those reformist-activists are involved in, including, (sigh!) even churches 
>and even the Democratic Party. So the difficult question becomes: "How to 
>become active in those groups, while criticizing the essence of what those 
>groups stand for in order to win people away from those perspectives, WHILE 
>STILL maintaining credibility with the people in those groups."
> 
>  I don't have any easy way to do this. If it were easy, we would have 
>eliminated capitalism a long time ago. We continue to learn and we continue to 
>make all kinds of mistakes, sometimes at the same time!  But I do know that we 
>have to try to avoid both major mistakes: the mistake of not getting involved 
>with people over issues that they are concerned with, and the mistake of not 
>very sharply and honestly struggling with people to win them away from 
>reformism even as we participate in reform movements. And certainly within the 
>context of my teaching and my participation on PSN, WSN and other similar 
>venues, I place primary importance on struggling to win people away from  
>reformism. 
> 
> Getting involved in reform movements is not the same as saying that we will 
>accept the reform as "partially accomplishing the social change we seek."  One 
>way of looking at it is "Half a loaf is better than none."  But another way of 
>looking at it is that it is simply a "bribe" to buy our complicity in the 
>oppression of others.  Like I said, figuring all this out isn't easy, but, to 
>agree somewhat with Talmadge again, figuring it out won't happen by sitting in 
>a room meditating or re-reading the sacred texts of Karl & friends -- it will 
>come mainly by being actively involved in mass struggles and organizations.
> 
> 
> Alan Spector
> =============================================
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Talmadge Wright" <twright@orion.it.luc.edu>
> To: "Alan Spector" <spectors@netnitco.net>
> Cc: "Judi Kessler" <jukessle@weber.ucsd.edu>; "Steve Rosenthal" 
><smrose@mailhub.exis.net>; <PSN@csf.colorado.edu>; <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Contradictions of an election in an imperialist country
> 
> 
> > 
> > While Alan and Steve may be correct in the abstract their arguments fall
> > on deaf ears. Unless Americans are dying in foreign wars I would expect
> > that the majority of Americans are little interested in Iraq's people, or
> > Haitian people's or anybody else other than those who live in their town
> > or immediate neighborhood. Alas, this is the American psyche according to
> > Tocqueville. Provincal is the word. This raise the question of how to do
> > what Steve and Alan want. In the 1930s and earlier labor organizers could
> > mobilize popular consciousness by organizing factory workers and employing
> > concepts of fairness to sell their platforms - same in the present on a
> > global scale. There are many platforms on which to organize these
> > days. Why are not more people listening? 
> > For all its faults the Democratic party has a well developed cadre
> > of organizers, and money to back them up. What do we have? (This is not to
> > defend them by the way - merely a logistical point). Both parties have the
> > legal machinery of the State locked up. How do we break that hold? And
> > what do we have to offer those women in this country who say to us that
> > they are legitmately afraid that a Bush administration will set women's
> > rights back? To use the argument that Gore is just as bad is simply not
> > true and will be dismissed outright by those we are trying to
> > reach. Perhaps Nader was a small baby step in the right direction.
> > I believe what is needed is party building AND direct
> > action. Developing alternative social organizations and institutions AND
> > working with the present legal structure. Developing sources of revenue
> > AND holding officals accountable for their decisions (And how do we do
> > that?). What I am saying is that all of these theories of Steve and Alan
> > are fine but they are so much hot air to the masses who want pragmatic
> > results for their efforts. Without results there is no motivation. Without
> > motivation there is no direction. And without direction there is no
> > focus. Without focus there is only hot air. I would suggest we work with
> > the Democratic party where we can and you keep pursuing our agenda
> > inside and outside the party. That means also moving between the
> > Democrats and a third party structure - maintaining flexibility. A
> > struggle on all fronts. Purism is the quickest way to defeat.
> > 
> > Talmadge  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ****************************************************************
> > * Talmadge Wright (773) 508-3451 *
> > * Dept. of Sociology/Anthropology     FAX:(773) 508-7099 *
> > * Loyola University Chicago        *
> > * 6525 N. Sheridan Rd.        *
> > * Chicago, Illinois 60626        *
> > ****************************************************************
> > 
> > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Alan Spector wrote:
> > 
> > > Many of the half million people killed by U.S. developed sanctions against
> > > Iraq are also women. A vote for Gore or Bush is a vote to continue the
> > > sanctions and a general imperialist foreign policy that kills and enslaves
> > > tens of millions every year.  It might be argued that Bush would continue
> > > the sanctions anyhow, but at least Gore would presumably defend Roe v. 
>Wade.
> > > But voting for Gore does undermine the ability to build an independent
> > > grassroots movement. Every four years, there will ALWAYS be another crisis
> > > "just this one last time we have to support the Democrats"--this has and
> > > will happen again and again. The only way to stop the mass genocide of
> > > imperialism is to build an anti-capitalist movement. Voting for capitalist
> > > politicians undermines this.
> > > 
> > > Alan Spector
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Judi Kessler" <jukessle@weber.ucsd.edu>
> > > To: "Steve Rosenthal" <smrose@mailhub.exis.net>
> > > Cc: <PSN@csf.colorado.edu>; <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Contradictions of an election in an imperialist country
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > All true, but the alternative - and we really only have two options -
> > > > would be much worse.
> > > > Whatever our political ideologies might be, the reality is, we live in a
> > > > capitalist nation and our choices are limited to Gore/L. or Bush/C. Some
> > > > of the Jewish and Haitian voters are also women, and most women don't 
>want
> > > > to see a new Supreme Court overturn Roe vs Wade.
> > > > I don't see a contradiction - only pragmatism.
> > > > Judi Kessler
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Steve Rosenthal wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In Florida disenfranchised Jewish voters demand that their votes for
> > > > > Gore and Lieberman be counted, yet Gore and Lieberman are strong
> > > > > supporters of Israeli oppression of Palestinians.
> > > > >
> > > > > Disenfranchised Haitian American voters also demand that their votes
> > > > > for Gore and Lieberman be counted, although the Clinton-Gore
> > > > > administration supported the 1991 coup against Aristide, supported
> > > > > the coup government that murdered thousands of Haitians, and only
> > > > > agreed to return Aristide to Haiti after he promised to abandon his
> > > > > reform efforts and instead to impose structural adjustment on the
> > > > > Haitian people.
> > > > >
> > > > > Neither Palestinians nor Haitians who have been victims of US
> > > > > imperialism and its client regimes for many decades had any
> > > > > opportunity to vote in this election.
> > > > >
> > > > > Vietnamese Americans voted in the U.S. presidential election, but
> > > > > Pres. Bill Clinton arrives in Vietnam today to promote US investment
> > > > > and trade with a country in which the US imperialism killed some
> > > > > three million people during a quarter century of war.  Both Democrats
> > > > > and Republicans have yet to be called to account for that crime
> > > > > against humanity.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are some of the contradictions of elections held by the ruling
> > > > > class of an imperialist country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve Rosenthal
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> > 
>