Re: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?

see CAPS BELOW On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Elson Boles wrote:

> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:58:22 -0400
> From: Elson Boles <boles@svsu.edu>
> To: franka@fiu.edu
> Cc: wsn@csf.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?
> 
> Dear Gunder,
> 
> Thanks.  But please clarify one seeming contradiction in your response.
> 
> On the one hand, you say "no" to the question, "Do you see other "world 
>systems" existing coterminous with the
> Eurasian world system of ReOrient?" YOU WROTE REORIENT, THAT IS
1400-1800, THERE WAS NONE AFTER 1492/1500
 This contradicts what you and
Gills wrote previously: "However, the 'New World' in the 'Americas' was of 
course home to some world-systems of its own before its incorporation into our 
(pre-existing) world system after 1492 (Frank and Gills 1996: 3)." 
> 
> So, as of now, have you changed your position and contend that there were no 
>other world systems (no hyphen) that existed elsewhere on the planet during 
>the era of your Euraisan World System PRIOR to its expansion across the entire 
>planet after 1750?
> 
> Cheers,
> Elson
> 
> Elson E. Boles
> Assistant Professor
> Sociology
> Saginaw Valley State University
> 
> 
> >>> Andre Gunder Frank <franka@fiu.edu> 08/12/03 11:31AM >>>
> I have not stidied the pre'Columbian'Americas, except for readint this
> and that, and writing in response to some of that, in my commentaRY
> CHAPTER IN THE kARDULIAS EDITED wORLD sYSTEM BOOK sorrry for caps, where 
> you can look up what i had=have- to say.
> 
> The Afro-Eurasian sysem is ''global'' or '' world'' in the sens that it
> expanded to incoorporate the ''new world'' -
> IW also speaks so, but of course his ''world'' is European Atlantic and
> only starts to incoporate the rest after 1750.
> 
> 
> Answers to 1-4
> 1 no ,2 yes, 3 as you wish for the opccasion,context of yours, 4.yes and
> no = also other criteria, see bronze age article or Denemark edited book
> cheers
> agf
> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, Elson Boles
> wrote:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:54:24 -0400
> > From: Elson Boles <boles@svsu.edu>
> > To: franka@fiu.edu 
> > Cc: wsn@csf.colorado.edu 
> > Subject: What really is Andre Gunder Frank's position on worlds?
> > 
> > Dear Gunder,
> > 
> > I've been working on an article for Review since about the time we both 
>presented at an ISA panel in Chicago, Feb 2001 (I presented on the Japan-US 
>silknetwork and published my paper in JWSR.)   A heavy teaching load keeps me 
>from finishing this article (and much else).
> > 
> > When assessing your and Gills arguments, it is sometimes necessary to 
>distinguish the literal word with the spirit of intention (or the content).  
>An recent example is found in WSN in which you audaciously claim:
> >  
> > In reality, there are and have been NO civilizations, societies, cultures, 
>ethnicities   and even states in and of themselves. There are NO such 
>essentialist intrinsically self-contained entities. To claim, identify, and 
>study any such makes NO sense whatsoever and only beclouds reality. There are 
>only connections and relations within and among such alleged civilizations.
> > 
> > However, the spirit of the words is later qualified: "I dont deny
> > existence of culgture, of cousre not, but evidence suggests that it is
> > not a much causative element of what happens. Structure is mucg mnore
> > so."
> > 
> > This particular subject of structure and agency isn't part of my essay.  
>However, what is concerns the temporal and spatial boundaries of your and 
>Gills 5000 year old system.  
> > 
> > Let me switch to the third-person.
> > 
> > Frank very frequent uses  the term "global" in characterizing the 
>difference of your and IW's views, but he doesn't literally mean the globe 
>which implies the entire planet.  The spirit of the term, and sometimes 
>alternative wording like "Eurasian world system," indicates that Gills and 
>Frank's world system is smaller than the entire planet.  Another example is 
>that in one essay Gills and Frank write:  
> > 
> > However, the 'New World' in the 'Americas' was of course home to some 
>world-systems of its own before its incorporation into our (pre-existing) 
>world system after 1492 (Frank and Gills 1996: 3).
> > 
> > Clearly, their use the term "world-system" (with hyphen), must be an 
>editorial error.  And Barry has confirmed this in correspondence with me.  But 
>this issue has led to confusion for many, including Wallerstein, who 
>incorrectly contended that, "They use the singular because, for them, there is 
>and has been only one world system through all of historical time and space" 
>and "They cannot conceive of multiple 'world-systems' coexisting on the 
>planet" (1996 [1991]: 294, 295).   There is evidence in Gills and Frank's 
>writings to the contrary, including the statement about the "belated 
>incorporated Americas after 1492 and of Oceania after 1760."   
> > 
> > The question then is what was in the Americas prior to that?  So, I
> > put these more general questions to AGF:
> > 
> > 1.  Do you see other "world systems" existing coterminous with the
> > Eurasian world system of ReOrient?
> > 
> > 2.  At some point in time in human history, do you not acknowledge the
> > existence of systems (and more of them) smaller than your large world
> > systems?
> > 
> > 3.  If so, what do you call them if not bands, tribes, chiefdoms, or
> > networks, or "mini-systems"?  If not, then what?
> > 
> > 4.  Is it not the case that you use the same criteria as Wallerstein
> > (a division of labor) to measure the boundaries of your systems in
> > time and space?
> > 
> > Elson E. Boles
> > Assistant Professor
> > Sociology
> > Saginaw Valley State University
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
>                ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK
> 
> Senior Fellow                                      Residence
> World History Center                    One Longfellow Place
> Northeastern University                            Apt. 3411
> 270 Holmes Hall                         Boston, MA 02114 USA
> Boston, MA 02115 USA                    Tel:    617-948 2315
> Tel: 617 - 373 4060                     Fax:    617-948 2316
> Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/     e-mail:franka@fiu.edu 
> Web-page UPDATES are at   http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 




    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

               ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK

Senior Fellow                                      Residence
World History Center                    One Longfellow Place
Northeastern University                            Apt. 3411
270 Holmes Hall                         Boston, MA 02114 USA
Boston, MA 02115 USA                    Tel:    617-948 2315
Tel: 617 - 373 4060                     Fax:    617-948 2316
Web-page:csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/     e-mail:franka@fiu.edu
Web-page UPDATES are at   http://rrojasdatabank.info/agfrank 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~