Re: Merging WST and complexity science

Regarding the instrumetalization, measurement and conceptualizations of
such dissipation, ecological economics and its variety of tools could
perhaps be of assistance here? One aspect of such ecological-economic
dissipation is indeed visible - "Bild 1" on this site is taken from a
satellite picture depicting the dissipation of energy from the Korean
peninsula seen from space:

http://www.demesta.com/carl/ekografi/

Energy is, however, imho, quite a difficult marker for economic
activites as there are several types of energy - perhaps Hornborg's
refinement of the exergy concept (usable energy) is more viable here but
I personally think that there are more usable units of analysis, in
particular the analysis of the appropriation and dissipation of
'ecological footprints'.

Other types of conceptualizations can perhaps be done with respect to
other proxy measurements of an ecological, non-monetary kind (such as
Burns, T. Davis, B, Kick,E:s "Position in the world-system and national
emissions of greenhouse gases") but perhaps such studies tend to be a
bit too "piece-meal".

Economic systems are, I argue, not dissipative structures - instead
economic systems are economic systems and should be treated as such;
dissipation is a physical/biological concept! Analogies between physics
and world-system(s) analysis should perhaps better be seen as what they
really are - mere analogies - although there probably are many important
conceptual ideas in the field of physics which successfully can be
transplanted into a world-system context (like what was done in
quantitative economic geography back in the 50-60's but without letting
the Pythagoran All-Things-Are-Numbers-genie out of the bottle!).

Some interesting pieces of writing which I myself have found interesting
here:

Wicken, J.S., "Evolutionary self-organisation and entropic dissipation
in biological and socieconomic systems", 1986

Ayres, R U, "Self-organisation in Biology and economics", 1998

Georgescu-Roegen, N, "The entropy law and the economic process", 1971

And my personal favourite:

Dyke, C., "Cities as dissipative structures", in Weber, Depew, Smith
(eds), "Entropy, Information and Evolution: new perspectives on physical
and biological evolution", 1988

Yours,
Carl
-----
Carl Nordlund, BA, PhD student
carl.nordlund(at)humecol.lu.se
Human Ecology Division, Lund university
www.humecol.lu.se


-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: wsn-owner@csf.colorado.edu [mailto:wsn-owner@csf.colorado.edu] För
Andre Gunder Frank
Skickat: den 13 juni 2003 20:01
Till: Boris Stremlin
Kopia: Shelton Gunaratne; wsn@csf.colorado.edu; franka@fiu.edu
Ämne: Re: Merging WST and complexity science


i would be most ap[predciative for sny guides on how to do this, how to
instrumentalize, measure, or even identify the channels of dissipation.
in my case they include the multilaterality of the system, which is the
other main theoretical leg on which my anazlysis rests or is suposed to
rest, if i can pull it off. gunderOn Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Boris Stremlin
wrote:

> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:32:54 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Boris Stremlin <bstremli@binghamton.edu>
> To: Andre Gunder Frank <franka@fiu.edu>
> Cc: Shelton Gunaratne <gunarat@mnstate.edu>, wsn@csf.colorado.edu
> Subject: Re: Merging WST and complexity science
> 
> The bit on entropy dissipating from North to South is intriguing - I 
> have been toying with this idea for a while myself as a necessary 
> corrective to much of conservative-leaning political philosophy/world 
> history which addresses the issues of political order. In a detailed 
> study the mechanisms of transmitting entropy would have to be clearly 
> outlined - and they are not just (or purely) economic.  Much of this 
> literature stresses the necessity of tension - cosmos vs. society, 
> economy vs. polity, science vs. humanities, etc., as the necessary 
> price for the maintenance of order, and cite the alleviation of such 
> tensions as the cause of social collapse and chaos.  The question they

> generally fail to raise is that the cost of maintaining such tension 
> is very unevenly distributed - and here the core/periphery model is 
> very useful.  The repressed returns, and in far more damaging ways in 
> the periphery than in the core.
> 
> On the other hand, the abolition of such tension by fiat doesn't 
> strike me as particularly useful.  The central political importance 
> that conservatives attach to the above dichotomies is vastly 
> overstated (and therefore, usually enforced by force, or at least the 
> threat of force), but so is the insistence on irreducible unity.  What

> is to be gained by forcing people to chose between civilization 
> singular and civilizations plural?  Why not have both?  In fact, the 
> very statement of the problem in these terms only perpetuates the 
> dichotomies and their enforcement.  Ditto materialism/idealism.  I'm 
> not sure about "Buddhism as materialist" either
> - this contention is meaningful only as a contrast to an equally
reified
> "idealist Christianity".
> 
> 
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Andre Gunder Frank wrote:
> 
> > I am working on my ReORIENT THE NINETEENTH CENTURY, a sequel to my 
> > book that ended in 1800. This one goes from 1750 to 1914 -- mabey 
> > later. It combines several old and new analytical things. of course 
> > WST and WST as reformulated in ReOrient. But also analysis of the 
> > MULTILATEAL system in which place in the system is more important 
> > than what one can do on ones own, eg by technology, production etc. 
> > And ENTROPY as the disorder, both physical and social, that is 
> > generated by the growth process but it dissipated from te North to 
> > the South, especially taking advantage also of the multilateal 
> > position and links mentioned above. In a crude sense/vesion of the 
> > analysis, MULTILATERALUTY determines the benefits that can be drawn 
> > from LOCATION,LOCATION, LOCATION in the system, and ENTROPY is the 
> > cost of the process, but some [much?] of which can be and is 
> > DISSIPATED from those who generate it to those - unfavorably located

> > - who are obliged to absorb that cost, and thereby ''appear'to be 
> > disorganized by war,cconflict, crime, poverty etc. This is a 
> > materialist analysis of a materialist world. Where the Buddhist 
> > concenpts mentioned in the questiin come in, I do not know, but 
> > would be glad to be enlightened. Buddhism is materialist also, 
> > however.
> >
> > gunder frank
> >
> > Threin it also draws on PirogeneOn Sat, 7 Jun 2003,
> --
> 
> Boris Stremlin
> bstremli@binghamton.edu
> 
> 




 
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               ANDRE    GUNDER      FRANK

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