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Re: FW: [pga] FW: 1 - News from israel-palestine
by Sabri Oncu
12 March 2002 01:17 UTC
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Dear Jessica,

The opinions expressed in the e-mail I forwarded belongs to its
author, who happens to be an Israeli. And I agree with that
Isreali person for the most part, if not all.

Let say me this: I have no doubt that Israelis are living on the
verge of insanity as well. But I don't view the ongoing turmoil
in Palestine as a fight between the Isreali and Arab peoples.
Putting this as a fight between the Israeli and Arab peoples is
the wrong way of defining the problem. I have nothing againts the
Israeli people and indeed have many Israeli friends whom I love
dearly. Just as I have many Palestinian friends whom I love
dearly as well.

On the other hand, the State of Israel is an oppressor of the
Palestinians, just as my own State is an oppressor of the
Kurdish. And there are many Americans on this list who are well
aware of that their state is the biggest oppressors of all,
oppressing people around the globe, including mine.

And I am not a bit offended when I am reminded that my state is
an oppressor state. Indeed, I know that it is. Such uprisings are
never pleasant and until there remain no oppressors and the
oppressed, I don't think they will end, for many decades to come,
to be optimistic, of course.

This is how I see it,


-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica Shadian [mailto:shadyj11@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:12 PM
To: Sabri Oncu; ALIST; WSN; PEN-L
Subject: Re: FW: [pga] FW: 1 - News from israel-palestine

Sabri Oncu-
I really do not want to try and deny any of what you
are saying and i believe that everything you are
saying indeed is correct.
However, this problem (while inevitably must can only
begin to be resolved by giving the Palestinian's a
state) has more than one dimension.
A large problem that fuels the Sharon government and
the majority of the Israeli opinion (which to my total
shock- Sharon's gov is wavering not because of his
tough stance, but quite the opposite) is that the
Israeli's are living on the verge of insanity as well.
 From what i know from my family members who live
there it is quite stressful no matter how numb one
becomes to violence to live in a place where you have
to wonder if every time you step on a bus or get a
coffee it might be your last one.  People are
persistently on edge (suicide bombings attempts are a
daily occurrence and successful ones almost as common
recently) and people have become crazy because of it.
Where the Palestinian's feel a sense of haplessness
and lack of freedom their stress comes out and we see
a female teacher turn into a suicide bomber....for
Israel's who feel the same lack of freedom we see a
sense of violence as well which because it has state
institutions comes out with a democratically elected
(and what i believe, racist) real-politik leader and
worse an Isreali public who is losing confidence in
him because he is in fact not being tough enough.
I am sorry, but I just don't think we can
parsimoniously conclude that the middle east problem
is one of oppressor and oppressed.  I think both sides
are very much victims and aggressors and nothing will
change until both sides can begin to understand their
responsibilities in maintaining and more recently
exacerbating the hatred and killing going on right

--- Sabri Oncu <soncu@pacbell.net> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mblevy@actcom.co.il
> [mailto:mblevy@actcom.co.il]
> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 6:20 PM
> To: undisclosed-recipients
> Subject: 1 - News from israel-palestine
> Hello to all,
> I hope you are well.  i took a short jaunt through
> some
> major internet media sources today, from all the
> major
> continents, and found very little about what is
> really
> happening here.  i'm sending a little bit of
> information
> from here, because it is really very serious. even
> to those
> living it, and those of us having to watch is, it is
> very
> difficult to comprehend how it can continue to get
> worse,
> but it really does.  a just resolution to this
> conflict will
> not come without international pressure.  please
> feel free
> to pass on any information here you think might be
> of
> interest to anybody.
> sharon made a public announcement a few days ago
> that,
> basically, he was now going to beat the palestinians
> into
> submission.  it was something very close to: "They
> need a
> really good blow, and then they'll go back to
> negotiations."  the israeli establishment cannot
> afford to
> not return to negotiations, because negotiations are
> where
> the palestinian basic needs can be compromised to
> israeli
> benefit. it is the palestinian people who are
> refusing to
> allow their leadership to negotiate under these
> terms, which
> is precisely why sharon is attempting to clobber
> them into
> submission.
> The "escalation of violence" in the last days is
> largely
> comprised of a series of Israeli military incursions
> into
> Palestinian refugee camps.  the pretense for their
> actions
> is "hunting down terrorists".  One of their tactics,
> quite
> well publicized here out of a need to explain how so
> many
> people could be injured in one day, is hte
> following:
> rather than going from door to door, which would put
> the
> military at a physical disadvanatage to all the
> palestinian
> people on the street, they are going from home to
> home
> through by breaking down the common walls between
> the
> cramped camp homes.  F-16s and tanks are being used.
>  there
> have been several reports of targets being adjacent
> to
> schools, in both gaza and the west bank.
> refugee camps in both gaza and the west bank have
> been
> targeted.  camps outlying ramalla, and one small one
> inside
> of bethlehem are two that have not been targeted
> yet, and
> people are just waiting.  not sleeping at night.  i
> spoke
> with someone at azza camp in bethlehem yesterday,
> and she
> says the tiny camp is surrounded by tanks.  they can
> walk
> within the camp, but don't leave the camp.  if a
> child goes
> outside with firecrackers, they fear for their
> lives,
> thinking it could give the military pretense to
> enter, and
> shoot.
> freedom of movement not only outside of refugee
> camps, but
> between various locations, has been almost
> completely
> stopped for days.  friends that work in jerusalem
> can
> perhaps get to ramalla for a meeting, but it might
> take all
> day, or they may stay overnight.  these locations
> are less
> than an hour apart.  in places where there was a
> checkpoint
> two weeks ago, there are now three.  one checkpoint
> is
> military control of your life; three checkpoints is
> complete
> restriction of freedom of movement.
> i just spoke with a palestinian child psychologist
> who has
> been going from school to school, classroom to
> classroom,
> just letting children speak their truths, process
> something
> with her guidance.  she says she feels like her head
> is
> about to explode from the level of helplessness she
> exists
> in everyday.
> i don't know how much i can say here, and i know
> much, much,
> much less than the people that live it every day.
> should
> you want to try to get a glimpse of something
> happening here
> - and are able to read between the lines quite well
> -  you
> may try the English internet version of Ha'aretz,
> one of the
> israeli newspapers.  they of course don't write
> everything,
> and scew almost everything, but they do give some
> framework
> of what's happening: www.haaretzdaily.com more
> useful would
> be to check palestinian or other arab press.
> concerning palestinian violence, i am almost as safe
> as you
> are, whereever you may happen to be.  this is not an
> equal
> fight, or a fight between equals: this is a fight
> between
> oppressor and oppressed, and i'm on the side with
> the bigger
> bat.  there is a well known statistic here that more
> than
> twice as many people have died in car accidents in
> israel
> than have died as a result of the Palestinian
> Intifada. on
> the other hand, one of the reasons the numbers of
> injured
> Palestinians have escalated so high in the last days
> is that
> palestinian men in the refugee camps are fighting
> the
> israeli military, on their streets.  facing the
> tanks,
> weapons, tear gas, they are refusing to be
> victimized and
> are fighting.  in one camp near bethlehem, there was
> a
> public decision made that all the men should leave
> the camp,
> so that when the military comes, they have no one to
> look
> for, no one to fight, no excuse to do damage.  in
> this way,
> they are trying to preserve everyone's safety.  in
> the camp
> written about below, hundreds of people blocked the
> entrance
> to the camp, trying to keep the military out; many
> were
> injured, many died.  rumor has it that hundreds
> (200-400)
> have been arrested and are being held under
> god-knows-what
> conditions.
> As an example of one of the most recent atrocities,
> this
> message was posted today to a listserv for primarily
> israeli
> activists.  Tamar Pelleg Sryck is one of isreael's
> foremost
> human rights lawyers.
> [1] A report on what is still going on in Tul Karm
> right now
=== message truncated ===

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