Re: Defining the Islamic State

1) Your use of the word "cult" to describe all of Islam is revealing, since
you don't use that word to describe all of Christianity.

2) The fact that you see Islam as "a threat to humanity" is revealing, since
you don't seem to think that the Christian nations, such as the U.S., with
all its nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, and along with Europe,
its role in the oppression and death of so many millions over the past 100
years constitutes a "threat to humanity".......but maybe you don't regard
what is happening in Africa as a "threat to humanity" because you are
defining "humanity" in terms of "people like you", whatever that is.

3) Anyone can quote anything about "people being afraid to face the truth."
(and quoting that great "humanitarian"...T.S. Eliot, at that!)  Attaching
your ideas to such an expression doesn't mean that what you say is
true......one can easily toss that same expression back at you and your
unwillingness to face the reality of the crimes of imperialism.

================



----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
To: "Alan Spector" <spectors@netnitco.net>
Cc: "Seyed Javad" <seyedjavad@hotmail.com>; <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State


> Mr. Spector, yes, I generally consider organized religion a bane of
> humanity, as the child molestation of the Catholic Church is an indicator,
> along with other similar cults. But my comments about Islam has to be
> taken in context of the message I was responding to, as well as my own
> life experience in interacting with individuals of the Islam faith. I did
> not say they are evil, or anything like that. But a significant number of
> the 1.2 billion members of the cult fit the description I offered in my
> earlier note. I believe I am presenting facts, perhaps not nice,
> ("Humankind cannot acccept much truth", to paraphrase T.S. Eliot.). No, I
> have not met all 1.2 billion members of Islam, but I have come in contact
> with a significant statistical sample of "educated" members of the cult to
> be personally satisfied that my characterization is accurate. And now I
> will also add that Islam is a threat to the survival of mankind, unless it
> moves it's ideology closer to the 21st Century. This is not a derogatory
> remark on an particular individual, but it is a reflection on the current
> state of Islam as a cult and the impact too many of it's theological
> leaders has on individuals it influences across the globe.
>
> //CJR
>
>
>  On Thu, 7 Mar 2002, Alan Spector wrote:
>
> > I won't go into a long discussion of Islam. I can find much to criticize
in
> > all fundamentalist religions, and in fact, in aspects of "mainstream"
> > religion as well. However, I am a member of the WSN list, and as such, I
> > feel a responsibility to dissociate myself from the comments of "Charles
J.
> > Reid" reprinted below.  I am astounded that such shallow, narrow-minded,
> > stereotyping appears on a list such as this and would not want anyone
who
> > reads it to assume that it represents any kind of sizeable percentage of
the
> > WSN list.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Alan Spector
> >
> >
> > P.S. Has Mr. Reid paid much attention to the protection of child
molesting
> > priests by the Catholic Church or the late night Protestant Christian
> > "Healers" on late night television, or the preaching of extreme
Zionists.
> > The one sided stereotyping of "Islam" in general is appalling.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Charles J. Reid" <cjreid@sonic.net>
> > To: "Seyed Javad" <seyedjavad@hotmail.com>
> > Cc: <wsn@csf.colorado.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: Defining the Islamic State
> >
> >
> > > My response to this piece is simply this: Modern Islam is dominated by
> > > forces who lack rationality and the "scientific method". The state of
> > > Islam today is about where the Catholic Church was at the time of
Giordano
> > > Bruno and Galileo. There is no theological leadership to move the
Islamic
> > > community from this absolutist, ideocratic state. What is needed IS a
> > > change of state. As long as madrasses where "the West is the enemy and
if
> > > you die killing you live'll forever with 70 virgins" is taught,
instead of
> > > reading, mathematics, and science, Islam will continue to be a
primitive
> > > community -- by and large -- and a point may be reached that the ony
> > > alternative other cultures have is "contain it" like we did the Soviet
> > > Union, so it will implode on the basis of its own irrationalities.
> > >
> > > //CJR
> > >
> > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Seyed Javad wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In this article, one of the Contemporary Muslim thinkers define what
an
> > > > Islamic State is:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > seyedjavad
> > > > From: "Muzaffar Iqbal"
> > > > To: "Muzaffar Iqbal"
> > > > Subject: quantum note for friday march 1
> > > > Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:06:16 -0700
> > > > Friday March 01, 2002-- Zilhaj 16,1422 A.H.
> > > > Defining the Islamic State
> > > > Dr Muzaffar Iqbal
> > > > The writer is a freelance columnist
> > > > How would a contemporary Islamic state differ from non-Islamic
states?
> > > > Who
> > > > would rule this state and how? What would it be like to live in such
a
> > > > state? What would such a state do with the enormous gap between the
> > > > economic, scientific and technological status of Muslims and
> > non-Muslims?
> > > > These are some of the questions that need clear answers before any
such
> > > > state can come into existence. These are also the questions which
should
> > > > have been answered by Pakistan's Islamic parties in this election
year,
> > > > if
> > > > they are serious.
> > > > Muslims believe that the Qur'an and Sunnah are two living sources
that
> > > > are
> > > > as relevant today as they were fourteen hundred years ago when they
were
> > > > first revealed. They also believe that these twin sources contain
all
> > the
> > > > guiding principles that are needed by them now. At least this is the
> > > > position of the normative Islamic tradition and it is held by all
> > Muslims
> > > > who have their spiritual and intellectual roots in the Islamic
> > tradition.
> > > > The real question, then, is how to translate the guiding principles
> > found
> > > > in
> > > > these two sources into a practical model that will work in our
times.
> > > > This
> > > > is the task and challenge that Muslims have been actively pursuing
for
> > > > more
> > > > than a century, after waking up from their slumber, they found
> > themselves
> > > > colonized and realized that something has to be done. The most
immediate
> > > > challenge was to get rid of the colonizing powers. But in the very
> > > > struggle
> > > > for independence, there was something fundamentally wrong: no where
in
> > > > the
> > > > Muslim world did people realize that this struggle for independence
has
> > > > to
> > > > be based on Islam and not on nationalism.
> > > > This wrong footing was exactly what the French and the British
> > colonizers
> > > > had hoped for. They had actively sought to create an intellectual
> > > > northern
> > > > alliance, which would call for a western-style government and demand
> > > > independence on the model of Britain and France. And when the native
> > > > resources had been drenched and the cost of maintaining direct
control
> > on
> > > > the colonies was becoming more than what they were willing to pay,
the
> > > > colonizers departed leaving behind the firm grip of an
administrative,
> > > > educational and ruling structure so that it could be governed
through
> > > > remote
> > > > control.
> > > > Thus, Muslims in their own traditional lands were randomly divided
into
> > > > contemporary states, each governed by a system which ensured their
> > > > continuous enslavement. For centuries, these people had lived in
mutual
> > > > reliance, though not always in harmony. Between Hijaz and the great
> > > > steppes
> > > > of Central Asia, there was a vast territory that was and still
remains
> > > > the
> > > > home of Muslims. But then it was linked together through a chain of
> > great
> > > > cities which were also centers of learning. And while certain rulers
at
> > > > certain times brought huge armies against other Muslim rulers, the
Hajj
> > > > and
> > > > trade caravans traversed the Silk Route and continued to serve as
the
> > > > most
> > > > important vehicle for the flow of ideas and goods.
> > > > All of this was shattered with the occupation of Muslim lands by
> > > > Europeans.
> > > > And none of this was restored after their departure. This is a
> > > > fundamental
> > > > point that needs to be understood in no uncertain terms. The nation
> > > > states
> > > > that have emerged in the post World War II era are inherently
incapable
> > > > of
> > > > independent existence; this is also an economic impossibility. Thus
no
> > > > amount of reform would make it possible for these countries to be
> > > > self-sufficient and truly independent states with enough human and
> > > > material
> > > > resources to be free of IMF bondage. One cannot make a circle out of
a
> > > > square, no matter how one bangs it around.
> > > > Given these fact, what is the route to real independence and an
> > honorable
> > > > existence? How can Muslims regain control of their destinies? How
can
> > > > they
> > > > live a life that is not defined and dictated by the new Great Axis
of
> > > > Evil:
> > > > the United States of America, Britain and Israel? This is the
question
> > on
> > > > which all Muslim intellectuals and thinkers need to focus. The
> > > > post-September 11 events had hijacked all efforts from this most
> > > > important
> > > > task faced by Muslims; it is time to return to it.
> > > > Those who think that they can achieve this by forming some kind of
> > > > underground network that kidnaps reporters and kills them are
clearly
> > > > working against this cause. Likewise, those who wish to take up arms
> > > > against
> > > > their own rulers, create nothing but chaos. Similarly, those who are
> > busy
> > > > in
> > > > propagating a made in America version of Islam are also playing with
> > > > fire.
> > > > Islam, let us reiterate, is not merely a private affair that takes
up
> > > > public
> > > > face on Fridays; Islam is a living tradition, defined by an
> > > > all-encompassing
> > > > code. Indeed, Allah has called Himself, al-Muheet, the all
encompassing.
> > > > So, the task before Muslims is really clear. They need to devise a
> > > > practical
> > > > strategy to regain control of their destiny as a community of
believers.
> > > > The
> > > > defining factor for their existence is neither sectarian, nor tribal
or
> > > > national identity, but an identity based on the Qur'an. This is the
> > > > unambiguous position of the Qur'an itself. It declares in no
uncertain
> > > > terms
> > > > that Allah has made different communities and the best of
communities is
> > > > the
> > > > one which holds on to the rope of Allah. This is the community of
> > > > believers:
> > > > "You are the best community that has been sent forth to mankind [in
> > that]
> > > > you enjoin right and forbid wrong and have faith in Allah" (Q.
3:110).
> > > > In this task of regaining freedom, the very first thing to be
understood
> > > > is
> > > > that Islam cannot be imposed by somehow gaining hold of the
government
> > > > and
> > > > bringing out bands of militia. This is not the way of Islam. The
> > struggle
> > > > of
> > > > so-called Islamic political parties to win elections and form
> > governments
> > > > to
> > > > implement Islam is doomed. And so are those who demand imposition of
> > > > Islam
> > > > by state decrees. True, there are some injections of Islamic Law
(the
> > > > Shariah) that require state legislation. But most of Islam does not
> > > > require
> > > > state laws for its implementation.
> > > > An Islamic state emerges; it is not established. An Islamic state
comes
> > > > into
> > > > existence through the most natural of ways, it is not a state that
is
> > > > established by decrees. An Islamic state is the end result of a long
> > > > process
> > > > of education, cultivation of Islamic ethos in private as well as
public
> > > > life. An Islamic state is like a beautiful tree that comes into
> > existence
> > > > because someone once planted a seed. An Islamic state is defined by
the
> > > > character of its inhabitants, not by the writ of law.
> > > > The character of the inhabitants of an Islamic state is the defining
> > > > factor
> > > > for the Islamic state. Given the current conditions of the Muslim
world,
> > > > the
> > > > greatest missing element in the emergence of an Islamic state is
none
> > > > other
> > > > than this defining factor. And this is what requires the greatest
> > > > attention
> > > > of all those who wish to establish an Islamic state.
> > > > In the simplest of terms, an Islamic state is a state in which the
prime
> > > > goal of the inhabitants of the land is to be a model of the Qur'anic
> > > > teachings. These are the people with whom Allah is pleased and who
are
> > > > pleased with Allah, as the Qur'an tells us. This is the only route
to an
> > > > Islamic state. Its most important constituent is none other than the
> > men,
> > > > women and children who live in it.
> > > > Thus, any organization, political or non-political, which wants to
> > > > contribute toward the emergence of an Islamic state, need to
concentrate
> > > > on
> > > > its most important building block: individual human beings. But how?
> > What
> > > > are the ways to do so? The answer must be sought in another
question:
> > How
> > > > did the Prophet of Islam do it? And that is the topic for the next
> > > > column.
> > > > ----------------------------------------------
> > > > Center for Islam and Science
> > > > www.cis-ca.org
> > > > ------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
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